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to wonder how Catholics can reconcile their faith with the Vatican's reaction to Ireland's abuse scandal?

(284 Posts)
ChristinedePizan Mon 25-Jul-11 21:48:00

Recalling their envoy to Ireland can only be seen as an a tacit acceptance of paedophilia surely? Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth hmm

Serenitysutton Mon 25-Jul-11 21:53:56

Tbh, just the tone of your post makes me think you can't (and don't want) to understand it, but instead to argue with Catholics that their supporting peodophila. Just so you know, the chances of you convincing them you're right are well, non existant.

Martha85 Mon 25-Jul-11 21:57:20

YABVU

ChristinedePizan Mon 25-Jul-11 21:57:27

I would really like to understand it. How on earth do you deal with that? I have argued with Catholics in the past on here about some of the unearthing around the paedophilia scandal but I'm absolutely shocked the Vatican has had such a fit of pique.

Sorry, my OP was badly worded but I am absolutely shocked.

amIbeingdaft Mon 25-Jul-11 22:00:58

Faith is about belief in God, not about what other Catholics may or may not do.
I consider myself human, as well as Catholic, but wouldn't want to be lumped in with some humans you hear about and their actions.

Did you start a thread slagging Muslims when Al Qaeda were terrorising people? hmm In all fairness you probably did.

Tortington Mon 25-Jul-11 22:01:02

faith and religion aren't the same thing - surely you've had that argument if you have had this argument with catholics before

or should i say " oh yeah, we're a bunch of paedo loving priest fuckers" would that make you happy?

Serenitysutton Mon 25-Jul-11 22:07:04

The catholic faith is not about individual catholics. Nearly every religion has a bloody history, but I'm not worshiping murderers either. I'm not actually practising, but that's the best example. People who don't follow religion don't usually understand it though.

rhetorician Mon 25-Jul-11 22:07:24

I'm not a catholic (or indeed a believer of any kind), but I do live in Ireland and know and love a number of practising catholics: from my discusssions with them on this point, most of them are shocked and appalled, but believe fundamentally that their faith transcends the failings of their church. None of them would even begin to defend their church's actions, and this is a huge source of pain and upset to them. You might also make the point that the nuncio's recall is a petty reaction to the Irish State finally standing up and saying what needed to be said - e.g. an admission of the State's collusion in all of this.

ChristinedePizan Mon 25-Jul-11 22:07:48

Oh bugger, I've completely messed this up and I'm sorry. Islam is not a faith where there is a leader like in Catholicism so that's a spurious comparison. But as far as I understand it, the Pope and the Vatican are critical to Catholicism. How does it work if you fundamentally disagree with their stance?

No, custardo, of course I'm not quite that stupid. Can any of you discuss this without resorting to personal insults or is that a vain hope?

Irishchic Mon 25-Jul-11 22:08:12

YANBU.

The Vatican is corrupt to the core. I am a Catholic but no longer practise nor do I ever intend to. I now prefer to think of myself as a Christian.

There are many good priests out there, yes, but the point is that Roman Catholicism is run and controlled by a very powerful, corrupt cabal that is contemptuous of the sanctity of children and their innocence.

I want nothing to do with that religion anymore.

rhetorician Mon 25-Jul-11 22:09:00

also I don't think it's a tacit acceptance at all - it's a piece of petty diplomacy - they recalled him before Ireland threw him out - which makes it all the worse, in my view

ChristinedePizan Mon 25-Jul-11 22:10:21

Thank your Serenity and rhetoritician, that is very helpful. Can I ask how you think Ireland might respond to this? I know Ireland has been such a huge supporter of the Vatican - is this a schism or is that an overstatement? It must be really painful for everyone involved.

Annunziata Mon 25-Jul-11 22:10:57

The scandals are absolutely horrifying.

But my faith is my faith; I pray to God and not to a priest. The absolute majority of priests are wonderful men BTW.

maypole1 Mon 25-Jul-11 22:14:10

I always wonder how you get over the fact their allowing people to die in africa when all they need say is wear a condom

mayorquimby Mon 25-Jul-11 22:17:00

"Rape and torture of children is okay obviously as long as its carried out by men of the cloth "
yup because that is definitely the position of every Catholic.

Many seem to be able to continuie practising because they can seperate their faith from the institution of the church in a way I never could which is why I renounced my religion.
Also I'm 90% most of us Irish Catholics are pretty much protestants.

basingstoke Mon 25-Jul-11 22:17:14

It's bloody difficult. Of course it is. Roman Catholicism is all about authority, and those in authority are up to their neck in a cover up of an appalling catalogue of child abuse. Any catholic who isn't examining their faith in the wake of this isn't thinking hard enough IMO. That said, I am still a catholic I think. It is in me in a way that is hard to explain. But facile 'you wouldn't say it about Muslims' arguments irritate me greatly. The church authorities need to be held to account for this, and by the rest of the church as much as those outside.

Irishchic Mon 25-Jul-11 22:17:23

I have a faith too, but the Pope is the head of the Roman Catholic church, so I reject it. I can still pray to God without following Catholicism.

OP you are not at all BU and I totally agree with you. I cannot understand why people are not leaving the catholic church in droves and instead choosing to follow God on their own, in prayer and living the best that they can.

Tortington Mon 25-Jul-11 22:18:46

point out the personal insult? as much as saying that catholics think that the rape and torture of children is ok. becuase that is what you are implying by asking us to explain it.

muslims do have figure heads - there are good ones and bad ones - we hear more of the bad ones - and ofcourse we should judge all women hating wife beating child marrying girl beating terrorist muslims thus non?

Sassybeast Mon 25-Jul-11 22:19:17

Blind denial. Verbal expressions of horror and disgust trip off the tongue. The scandal will die down again, the victims will continue to suffer and the faithful will blindly deny the evil. I don't think it IS 'painful' to be honest - I think it's painful in terms of the criticism they are facing but in terms of real acceptance of the findings and real action to brings these paedophiles and their supporters to justice, the pain is not so great that these issues will be forced.

rhetorician Mon 25-Jul-11 22:19:25

I think it's a cultural and therefore political shift; church and state formally separated in 1944, but ties have been very close because catholicism was so culturally and socially important. I think the axis has shifted and there is less political capital in the association, although mostly the social conservatism remains (well, chipped away); 95% of primary schools in Ireland are controlled by the church - a majority of parents still want a catholic education for their children (about 65%); that's an awful lot of people who are unable to access non-denominational education (some of these are actually catholics who prefer to explain their religion outside the classroom).

There would be a big rural-urban split, and it's also a class issue (in dublin all the abuse scandals took place in poor, working-class areas of the city). Withdrawing from some primary schools, the church claims, will enable them to focus on catholics of conscience (read, not working class) - you can bet your bottom dollar that they will leap like rats from the troubled schools in deprived areas - and then claim that all the problems result from the lack of a moral framework.

ChristinedePizan Mon 25-Jul-11 22:22:13

Thank you for the later posts. I really feel for you. It must be so, so hard for you. Do you think that the groundswell of Catholic opinion will actually force change in the Vatican over time?

ChristinedePizan Mon 25-Jul-11 22:27:21

It is not the same Custardo. The Catholic faith (as far as I understand it but please correct me if I am wrong) believes that the Pope is the leader of your Church and you're supposed to follow his edicts. There is no such equivalent in Islam. Mullahs have an entirely different role and there is no hierarchy.

The personal insults comment wasn't directed at you actually but the previous poster. You were rather (needlessly) aggressive though

Irishchic Mon 25-Jul-11 22:28:37

OP no it won't. The Vatican is such a powerful institution, it actually doesnt give a shit about the opinion of its followers. At the end of the day, it has survived down through the ages, and it didnt do that by bowing to public opinion. It believes itself to be untouchable, and up to now it pretty much has been.

Never underestimate its power. Sure, it will lose some of its followers after this latest issue, but it will endure. Sad, but true.

Martha85 Mon 25-Jul-11 22:29:56

I am Catholic and I don't always agree with what the Pope says and does. We are only bound to accept what the Pope says when it is declared as infallible.

The Pope, Bishops and Priests are human just like the rest of us, they sin, they make mistakes just like everyone else. To denounce the faith which has been given to us by God, passed down from Jesus Christ through his apostles would be crazy.

maypole1 - condoms do not prevent HIV/AIDS.

Annunziata Mon 25-Jul-11 22:30:42

Can I ask what you mean by change?

I think (hope) that with the next Pope there will be a massive change within the Church. The abusers should be kicked out, the church's policy on contraception revised etc.

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