In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.


Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

[SylviaPoe]

I'm going to copy my last posts from the old thread:

Yes, we send the soldiers to other areas as we did in Manchester, so that the police officers from those areas are freed up to deal with Kensington.

In Manchester co-ordination and liaison around deaths and the missing was handled by the police, from a stadium such was the concern for the families.

There were extra police to do this because other places, like London, had the army in so that the police could go and help in Manchester. The army was not in Manchester itself.

The lack of liaison over the missing is a major issue here.


They're not actually missing. It's a euphemism. They're dead.

And knowing how many are dead and identifying them will require huge amounts of liaison with the community to gather the information required to identify the bodies, especially as many have no dental records.

This is police work.

[BeyondStrongAndStable]

Gonna copy mrsglows post from the last thread, as I'd been wondering the same...

"What we haven't been told is how many uninjured got out of the building and who is taking care of them? We know that an accurate number is not possible but the LFB and authorities could say 'we estimate xxxx got out without needing medical treatment' this type of information is normally given so why not here. Tbh the longer they keep people in the dark the more distrust builds."

[RhythmAndStealth]

The lady therapist speaking on the BBC just now is lovely. She's talking about helping people with their trauma and loss, about the therapists who have come down to volunteer who know this isn't a short-term process and they are in it for the long haul.

She spoke very moving about the therapy she had used to help a lady suffering a profound loss.

[Slimthistime]

I think the authorities are probably partly saying nothing on legal advice
I also think there's a possibility the building will need to be pulled down and evidence wil be conveniently lost
Why is Labour not requesting an inquest rather than an inquiry?

[eynesbury]

Long term therapy. Yes that's got to be provided

But with that tower there, looming, a constant reminder. Horrific for every person living locally

Surely, it's got to come down once the full search is concluded?

[cheeseandtoast]

What I don't understand is why there has not been a co-ordinate response - I just don't get it?

[Bloomed]

Yes beyond and mrsstrong this is exactly what I'm wondering

[Saucery]

I'm sure it will, eynesbury. Quite what should go there I am not sure. I would like to see a memorial garden and civic space, protected in perpetuity from any residential or business building.
Housing at a premium in that area, I know, but would anyone want to live in a replacement residential block?

[BeyondStrongAndStable]

Apart from anything else, they usually release "got out okay" figures to umm, show off (probably wrong wording?!) how well it was dealt with. The lack of this can't be a good thing.

[thatdearoctopus]

Why is Labour not requesting an inquest rather than an inquiry?

Why Labour?

evidence wil be conveniently lost

Convenient for whom? But anyway, they'veprobably got most of the "evidence" they need. Hell, the whole bloody world could see those flames racing up the cladding like a forest fire in minutes.

[RhythmAndStealth]

Guardian is reporting that the Tube lines were closed as there is a temporary danger of debris falling onto the lines.

[SylviaPoe]

Labour should do it because they're the elected opposition party, and because a labour MP has been elected to represent the constituents.

[lobsterface]

I get that the "missing" are actually the casualties - but very few are missing given some 600 lived there. Where are those who escaped? It just doesnt add up.

[brasty]

Just read about how the council has hand delivered letters dated after the fire, to all local people round the tower giving them warning they could be evicted, if their children continue playing in a courtyard with a no ball games rule. Unsurprisingly lots of tenants are very angry.

The council can not get it together to help coordinate relief efforts, but can still warn people they can get evicted because of children playing ball games. Children who will have lost family and friends in the fire.

[mpsw]

The Army were only called in post-Manchester attacks to provide additional firearms support. For example, every Embassy in London has armed guards, as do other significant buildings. These are at minimum 2 armed police (more for bigger/higher risk). One of those two police was replaced by a soldier (I think it was all Army), freeing up specifically armed police who were deployed on the operations required as part of the investigation.

The Army don't usually back-fill for general policing (they don't have police powers, for a start).

[brasty]

More here

www.itv.com/news/2017-06-16/grieving-residents-delivered-warning-letter-day-after-grenfell-towers-fire/

[RhythmAndStealth]

North Ken Law Centre
@NorthKenLC

Here's the information leaflet we're handing out to residents in North Kensington who have been affected by the #GrenfellTower disaster 1/2

North Kensington residents - please get in touch if we can help with you access justice following the #GrenfellTower disaster 2/2

[SylviaPoe]

Thanks for that information MPSW.

[meditrina]

"Just read about how the council has hand delivered letters dated after the fire, to all local people round the tower"

It was to residents in two buildings round one specific courtyard (More West?) which was described as 'nearby'. Anyone with local knowledge know how near it is? (genuine question, I want to know how much they were arses, or if this is very tangential, but everything is going to be the wrong thing right now)

[MrsDanversKnickers]

Shocking brasty

[MakingMerry]

Can someone lay out for me the argument for holding an inquest rather than an inquiry?

I know public inquires take years, and answers are needed before then, particularly if other lives are at risk through living in substandard housing. But an inquest is a civil law investigation into cause of death, it does not - I believe - look into the systemic errors behind the issue. Nor does it commit any person to trial. Criminal trials may take place separately

So an inquest may reveal the factual cause of death - although sadly in some cases it will be impossible to tell. But I don't see how that really aids in preventing this happening again. We can already guess how many of these people died - the question is surely, why - what catastrophic series of decisions led to this event - which I don't believe is within an inquest's power to determine.

[BabsGanoush]

I also think there's a possibility the building will need to be pulled down and evidence will be conveniently lost I'm sure after 9/11 they took thousands of trucks full of debris away and literally sieved the lot of evidence and human remains. I wonder if that will happen here?

[Slimthistime]

Octopus, Labour because I have no faith the Tories will ask for it.

Evidence - residents reported many fire hazards, fire brigade search might be able to see, even in wreckage, evidence of this, e.g. Pipes not properly covered. Yes, hopefully they have this already but given how hard the authorities will try to avoid taking responsibility, the more evidence the better?

[SylviaPoe]

An inquest allows the family members to speak, and allows for family members to appoint their own expert witnesses, rather than the government.

An inquest gives more power to the family and less to the government.

That is what the lawyer from the Southwark case said.

[mrsglowglow]

Yes Brasty those letters are just vile. In the middle of the living hell these people are dealing with, they found time and manpower to 'hand deliver' them. It just seems to unbelievable.