university entry standards tariff points - how so high when most people take 3 A levels?

[AvillageinProvence]

Have just been looking at the overall actual entry standards at universities, measured by tariff points, and can't work out how they're so high at some universities! Not talking about offers here, but the points actually achieved by recent entrants.

So, as an example - History - 'Complete university guide' guide says the actual average tariff points achieved are Durham 203, LSE 181, UCL 180, Bristol 177, Exeter 172, York 171. (I've left out Scotland univs as Scottish highers may come into it more, and o/b as I expect they may raise different issues)
Link here:
Top UK University League Tables and Rankings 2020

So, given that A = 56 points, and A = 48, and the norm is now to do 3 arts/humanities A levels, how are they so high? Have people a) done 4 A levels, particularly at Durham as otherwise I don't see how you get to an average* of 203 points? b) done AS levels (I thought these had basically disappeared in arts/humanities) c) done EPQ (thought this was a private/grammar school thing mainly, but could be wrong and anyway that is 28 points at most) d) done lots of music exams? (DofE doesn't give you tariff points).

I don't understand!

[ifonly4]

You can gain tariff points through other exams, BTEC, City and Guilds, music exams, eg DD has 136 points through A levels and approx 70 points through music exams.

[AvillageinProvence]

Thanks, ifonly! I'd assumed you wouldn't normally do Btec or City and Guilds in addition to A levels (rather than as a combo roughly equivalent to 3 A levels). Do music exams get added cumulatively, so that you can include grade 6, 7 and 8 - or do you just get points for the 'top' practical and theory grades? Did your dd put them all on her UCAS form? I can see those may add up to a lot, as you're including theory as well.
All the same, to get to these averages there would have to be quite a lot of musical students! Particularly at Durham - similarly for English and Law there, which are 206 points! And UCL for law - 211. Does this mean for example that most people doing law at UCL have 3 A stars plus music?

[Ironoaks]

International Baccalaureate gives more points than A-levels. I think maybe Scottish Highers also do. Some applicants have points from extracurriculars. A couple of distinctions in Grade 8 instrumental exams would add on quite a few.

[ShanghaiDiva]

Some people may have taken the IB and this, depending on grade, would give a high number of points - my ds for example has 262 UCAS points from his IB and another 40 from two AS levels he took with his GCSEs.

[Ironoaks]

With music exams, you only get points for the highest exam you have taken in each instrument.

[derekthe1adyhamster]

They look like the old tariff points. Exeter certainly don't ask for more than AAA for many courses

[AvillageinProvence]

Ah yes, IB complicates matters - I can't work out quite how it translates, although this shows the conversion factors. Any IB experts who know how it would total up?
university.which.co.uk/advice/ucas-application/new-ucas-tariff-everything-you-need-to-know

I agree about highers also complicating matters - are there maybe more students from Scotland at Durham than most universities further south?

I think LAMDA speech and drama carries points as well - although not sure how many students take the higher grades. I imagine music is perhaps more widespread - though in answer to my previous question it looks as though you just take the highest music grade, not all of 6, 7 and 8 (though presumably two - music and theory - for each instrument if you play more than one).

[Ironoaks]

There is only one music theory exam, which is the same for all instruments.

In order to take practical instrumental exams for Grade 6 and above with ABRSM, you need to have taken Grade 5 theory, but that doesn't give UCAS points.

Some people continue taking theory exams beyond Grade 5 for their own sake, and those would give UCAS points.

In reality, courses such as History at universites like the ones listed in the OP give offers based on A-level grades, and they don't look at UCAS points.

[AvillageinProvence]

thanks shanghai - 262 for ib would certainly account for the higher averages! Is that on the new system though - I think they changed in 2017? link here for new ib/tariff conversion factors.
university.which.co.uk/advice/ucas-application/new-ucas-tariff-everything-you-need-to-know

Exactly Derek, the tariff points are much higher than the offers! These averages are for the points gained by actual entrants, not the offers. That would suggest that if these averages were gained from A levels alone, most students exceed their offers wildly (which I think does not always happen! though more so at some univs). Another example is politics at Durham 191, 185 at LSE and UCL. (Whereas typical offer on Durham website is 3 As = 144 points,).

[AvillageinProvence]

Ah, thanks ironoaks - that is interesting about music theory exams.

In reality, courses such as History at universites like the ones listed in the OP give offers based on A-level grades, and they don't look at UCAS points.

Yes absolutely - not an issue at all at the offer stage. What I was wondering is how the students who actually get those points do it - particularly as most are only taking 3 A levels for arts subjects. So even if you exceed a 3 A offer by getting 3 A stars you only get to 168 points. It's a long way up from that to an average of 203 gained by entrants to the course!
Are Durham/UCL/LSE unusually musical universities I wonder, or maybe have a higher proportion of the few remaining candidates who take 4 A levels?

[Ironoaks]

Disclaimer: at this point I am just speculating.

One possible explanation:
LSE (and to a lesser extent UCL) has a much higher than average number of overseas students, who may have taken IB, or perhaps other non-A-level qualifications which result in high UCAS points.

Another possible explanation:
Durham attracts pupils from independent schools, who are more likely to be doing IB or 4 A-levels (which may be the norm at their school) and may be more likely to have done music exams (classical music opportunities at their school).

[stucknoue]

Mostly the offer is a grade offer not points but you get extra points from music exams, the extended essay etc

[Ginfordinner]

I'm glad you raised this as I often wondered how students could gain so many points. DD took AS levels and A levels and banked the results from the subject she dropped. She did very well at AS and A levels, but her results don't look great compared to the entry standards on the CUG.

Her school didn't offer the EPQ BTW.

[HotGingerPudding]

I think relative numbers of Scottish students at English Universities do skew the numbers as well. My daughter has 297 points made up of 3 A Grades at Advanced Higher so 168 points plus 99 points from 3 A grades at Higher level achieved in the previous year that she did not continue to Advanced Higher. So 267 ‘academic point’. She also has 30 points from achieving ABRSM grade 8 distinction in one instrument.

Both ABRSM and Trinity award 30 points for a grade 8 distinction (highest achievable) per instrument. I believe for Music Theory it is only 10 points for achieving a grade 8 distinction.

Do any universities actually ask for UCAS points though?

[LolaSmiles]

I would imagine that the offers are given based on ser A level grades at too universities, then those strong, academic candidates who are also well rounded would also have 4 A levels (if relevant, especially if doing maths and further maths), EPQ, Lamda exams, music grades, DofE and so on.

Our strong a level students who will go to top universities are usually in that well rounded and academic model.

[AvillageinProvence]

Ironoaks both are interesting theories!

You're quite right stuck and hotginger, most university offers are grades not points - my question's really just curiosity about how, as a matter of maths, the average points actually gained is so high. For example Bristol, Exeter, KCL for English - the average tariff points gained are higher than three A stars (178, 172 and 170 respectively).

Hotginger that is very interesting about scottish highers and advanced highers - I hadn't realised the effect of dropping three highers and suspect that may be part of the answer about Durham - and ginfordinner it maybe that your dd's university (quite north?) also has a high proportion of scottish students?

an interesting Saturday morning diversion, anyway!

[ColdRainAgain]

Do kids still do General Studies? Would that be the 4th A level for many, especially at top unis?

I did my A levels in the days before A*, but would have 216points (Bs worth 40), with maths, 3 sciences, and general studies which school forced us all to do on the current scale.

[FluffytheGoldfish]

Scottish Highers are less than A level but more than As level. Advanced Highers are very similar to A level but at Advanced higer A=A* at A level, B=A etc.
So Dd2 has 5 higers at A so 33x5=165 already then add on the 3 AHs she is doing this year. Even getting CCC would give another 63 points for a total of 228 points.

[FluffytheGoldfish]

Forgot to add that some universities won't double count, so for dd2 will mean Maths Chemistry and Physics would only count at AH level along with her other 2 Highers. So 66 plus what she achieves this year. So miximum this year would be 234.

[Ginfordinner]

Do kids still do General Studies?

No. Since the A level reforms it is far better to do do three subjects and do well in them than do four and get lower grades. Universities don't offer on 4 subjects these days, not even Oxbridge or medical schools. And general studies is not accepted by most universities unless it is a fourth subject.

[ListeningQuietly]

The other question is
were all those extra UCAS points anything to do with the admission criteria?

eg a kid will put down their Grade 8 with distinction in music and their grade 6 in Ballet on the form as it adds points

but the A level grades are all that actually mattered to the department

[AvillageinProvence]

The other question is
were all those extra UCAS points anything to do with the admission criteria?

They may well not have been in the case of most humanities degrees, and most students who do 3 A levels. Different in the case of stem where further maths in addition to 3 others may be a requirement if the school offers fm - so, say, 2 A stars plus 2 As = 208 (roughly! just did it in my head). And music degrees possibly, though there I am not sure.

Coldrain I'm not sure about general studies - there also used to be something called critical thinking - I don't know if that's still offered, or not.

If music adds 40 points max per instrument you could end up with 70 for grade 8 in two instruments plus one theory, but I would imagine relatively few students have that. I think the Scottish highers and advanced highers may be one answer - a number of students with around 230 will bring up the average quite significantly!

[LolaSmiles]

The other question is were all those extra UCAS points anything to do with the admission criteria?
They'll tend to go on the application as part of showing their rounded personality, interests and skills.
It won't make part of an offer for a university offering on grades alone though.

[SirTobyBelch]

The UCAS tariff table is at www.ucas.com/file/259341/download?token=GXu_Pq-H

Many of the additional UCAS tariff points won't have anything to do with the admissions criteria.

I don't think general studies or critical thinking A-levels exist any more. Not in England, anyway.

[ShanghaiDiva]

@AvillageinProvence - yes his 262 points from the IB are calculated on the new points system. He would have a total of 302 with his 2 AS levels. He is at Warwick university and many of his peers have the IB rather than A levels and those with A levels tend to have four - thus increasing the point average.
The points for an IB HL grade 7 is 56, same as an A level A*, but as you need to take 6 subjects for the IB (three standard and three higher level) and complete the theory of knowledge course and an extended essay the possible point total will be much higher than taking 3 A levels.