To ask for help with PIP descriptors and regulations?

[PandasandPenguins]

I have an upcoming PIP tribunal and I’m so nervous

I had my whole award removed after a face to face assessment (report was completely inadequate but was used in favour of actual medical evidence from an actual specialist )

The PIP regulations state that a person should be able to complete a descriptor safely , in a timely manner and reliably .

In my medical evidence it specifically states that I might be able to complete an activity in the am , but not in the pm due to worsening fatigue.

In spite of arguing this point all throughout , I’m going to tribunal .

Based on this regulation - do I have a chance ?

I’m so nervous I don’t want to go if there’s no chance of winning for fear of looking like a liar or fraud (I’m not! I’ve been honest throughout).

Thoughts ?

[AnotherEmma]

Hi, I work in this area and I have colleagues who specialise in helping people with PIP (and ESA) appeals

I can't remember the figure off the top of my head - I will try and dig it out - but a large proportion of appeals work out in favour of the claimant

And you have a much higher chance of success if you go to the tribunal, nerve wracking though it is

The tribunal panel are impartial and they want to get a true picture of your situation - unlike the DWP and their assessor who just want to refuse your PIP

[AnotherEmma]

How do the descriptors work?
The person assessing your claim should consider whether you can carry out the activities reliably – i.e. safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and in a reasonable time period. There are rules about fluctuating conditions. For a descriptor to apply, it must be satisfied on over 50 per cent of days in a one year period. If two or more descriptors are satisfied for over 50 per cent of days, the highest scoring descriptor will be chosen. If no scoring descriptors apply for over 50 per cent of days, but, when taken together, two or more scoring descriptors are satisfied on more than 50 per cent of days, the one that applies for the greatest amount of that time will be chosen.
from www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/documents/adult-social-services/money-advice-factsheets/personal-independence-payment.pdf (pg 5)

Fluctuating conditions
To score points in the PIP assessment, you have to show that you have difficulties on more than 50 per cent of days. This is considered over a 12 month period – three months looking backwards and nine months looking forwards. If your condition varies, the best approach is to describe how things are on your worst days, and also how things are most of the time, or on your ‘better’ days. If your form only describes how things are on your worst days, when you attend your face-to-face assessment it will probably become apparent that things are not always that bad. This could damage your credibility. If you still have some difficulties on ‘better’ days, explain this. For example, you may need another person to wash you on bad days, and on good days be able to wash yourself but still have to sit down to wash. Try to give a picture of how many ‘bad’ days or weeks and how many ‘better’ days or weeks you experience over time, and how long ‘bad’ spells generally last for. If your condition varies during the course of the day, explain this. You may be able to score points if you have difficulty with an activity just for part of the day (or at night), if this means that you can’t perform the activity when you need to do it.
from www.hertfordshire.gov.uk/media-library/documents/adult-social-services/money-advice-factsheets/personal-independence-payment-guide-to-completing-claim-form-2016.pdf (pg 6-7)

[AnotherEmma]

Also there is some useful advice on PIP tribunal hearings at www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/your-hearing/

[VanCleefArpels]

Your local CAB will help you understand the rules and make sure you have sent everything relevant to the tribunal

[PandasandPenguins]

@AnotherEmma , that is very helpful information thank you

I’ll get DH to read through it to prepare .

Sadly there was no availability for CAB representation .

It was just DH and I the first time (we won) and it will be again.

I’m extremely nervous !

[VanCleefArpels]

You don’t need representation from CAB but they can walk you through the process and make sure you have submitted the right supporting docs. They might also help draft a letter on your behalf if required.

[AnotherEmma]

Tbh CAB resources are limited so if the person is able to do it themselves with just a bit of advice and guidance, they will do that. They won't necessarily do statements for someone who has already done statements. It's medical evidence that will carry real weight.

[TestingTestingWonTooFree]

If you think the first award was right, then ask for it to be reinstated. Emphasise that there have been no significant changes since then. Don’t go over the top on your claims, a Tribunal is not likely to score you 8 on every activity, more likely to gets 2s with the odd 4.

[SilverDragonfly1]

The whole inadequate report thing is so common. You should have a good chance based on the rule you mention. I'm not a trained expert, but PIP claims and tribunals (for friends/family) have been a big part of the last two years for me. You mention you've done it before, so it will be similar to last time with the panel just asking questions to clarify the difference between the report and what you put in the form.

No one, including the DWP or the assessor thinks you're a liar- they do think you're an easy target though. The more people who prove them wrong, the sooner they'll stop this tactic.

You're welcome to PM if you've any questions about my experiences (again with the caveat that I'm an ordinary person not trained in any way).

[TheOrangeOwl]

I was in the exact same situation with PIP as you earlier this year. The judge read the paperwork and the medical evidence made her decision, not the PIP assessment. We won without even technically having a tribunal? But hopefully your judge will focus on the medical evidence to, as assessors are not doctors.

[BonnesVacances]

You mention fatigue, so I'm assuming you have a chronic fatigue-related illness. There's a very helpful FB group called UK M.E. & Chronic Illness Benefits Advice Group which will be able to help you with your tribunal. It's not just for people with ME, there are people in there with other chronic illnesses too.

[PandasandPenguins]

We are hoping for the original award to be reinstated as nothing has changed , it was just removed

I was awarded 12 points last time and it’s what I agree I’m entitled to .

Thank you for all the responses .

@Bonnes I have ME , I will take a look at the group

[SusanneLinder]

I am a Welfare Rights Officer and do PIP appeals. Success rate is over 90%.

Is there anyone else that can represent you? Tribunals will normally allow your appeal to be adjourned to allow you to get representation.
Your case is a "supersession" ,( superceded a previous decision( and tribunal need to show why they think you have got "better", and a new medical isn't sufficient evidence. If they don't consider this, its
an "error in law". There is case law on this. ( its at work so don't have it to hand).
Thats why I suggest you get representation, as a Welfare Rights service will look at legal arguments for you. Most councils have a welfare rights service.

[SusanneLinder]

pipinfo.net/issues/fluctuating-conditions

This is a good source, used by advisors and has the regulations

[serenoa]

The Benefits and Work site produces some really good guides to applying for benefits, they helped me a lot when originally applying for DLA in 2012, and renewing it in 2017, when I got an indeterminate award. I didn't have to switch to PIP, thank deity.

You do have to subscribe to get them, they're a small group of volunteers, but they're really valuable if you decide to subscribe.

Best of luck with your tribunal.

[Mayjane5]

Have a look at fightback4justice website they have lots of information and advice, they are a charity they can help with forms and tribunals good luck

[McNeat]

Hi OP. I sit on PIP tribunals. You really don't need representation.

Don't worry. Honestly we're not scary at all.

Just answer the questions honestly. Explain AM you can and PM you can't.

We know what to ask to gather the evidence needed.

Good luck

[DiaryofWimpyMumm]

Good luck!

[SilverDragonfly1]

@SusanneLinder This is a job I would love to do. Is there any chance you might tell me a bit about how you got it and the type of qualifications needed initially?

[PandasandPenguins]

Thank you everyone

I’m feeling a little bit more positive after reading all of the information supplied .

I’m afraid I’m too late for representation as the tribunal is this week .

@McNeat can you usually tell when a person is nervous ?

@SusanneLinder 90%! That’s convinced me to definitely go !

Interesting about a supersession with only a face to face may contribute as an error in law , as this is the only appeal route I would have if we were to lose.

On the plus side , the last panel at tribunal did say they realised I had been very honest so I know just to be myself

Thank you for all the good luck wishes . I think I’m going to need it

[McNeat]

Superseding means the responsibility is upon the department to show you've improved.

The department is the DWP. We are not the DWP. We are HMCTS.

[Home77]

I'm having similar nonsense in my case my PIP was awarded by tribunal but they are ignoring that and trying to say a F2F takes it away (so similar) but giving no change in circs...wondering what the Tribunals will make of that.

The report is totally inconsistent, seemingly randomly giving descriptors (not the same ones as Tribunals did) and saying in some areas factually wrong things like they think I don't have a diagnosis (em, that will be listed in the Tribunals decision) and even when we tried to point that out at MR, they went back to the 'assessor' who said 'if they had been aware' (read the paperwork) of the diagnosis...they wouldn't have given more points anyway!

They have also tried to change things based on changes in how some of the descriptors are interpreted based on upper tribunals decisions since my Tribunal giving me the award. I have no idea if they can do this or not. The pipinfo site has details of these decisions.

[fleshmarketclose]

Ds had a lifetime award of HRM and HRC DLA reduced to nothing on the transfer to PIP. He wasn't awarded any points. Dh is his appointee and went to Tribunal for him, the panel stopped once they'd gone through enough questions to have enough points for him to have ER Daily Living and Mobility.
The panel seemed annoyed with DWP rep who couldn't answer any of their questions regarding their reasoning. Dh just gave an account of every day like he had in the form and at the medical but where DWP awarded no points the panel awarded him maximum points.
Good luck OP.

[PandasandPenguins]

I’ve WON I WON!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was incredibly nervous and the train was running late so that added to the pressure .

I could feel myself on the verge of tears before DH and I even entered .

I knew I’d be devastated after waiting a year to find out we had lost .....

The panel were lovely and I was in there less than 10 minutes !

The supersession wasn’t allowed and I WON!!

We are on cloud 9

Although , regrettably , too poor (thanks to the removal of my benefits ) and too exhausted to celebrate!

[PandasandPenguins]

@McNeat what will happen now ?

Do you think it will take long for PIP to be put in to payment ?