"We earn too much for any help"

[Zootrebilis]

Good morning!

Expecting to be flamed for posting this but I need to get it off my chest. I've noticed people moaning that they don't get any "financial help" when they're part of a high income household. I've listed two examples but have many more:

1. A facebook group I'm part of: A lady posted moaning her and her husband don't receive tax credits and was there a way if getting any! She said he's on a very high wage and she works part time but he spends too much and she can't see where his money goes! So basically she wants tax credits because her husband likes spending. Another poster replied moaning her husband earns over the threshold for child benefit as well!

1. Someone I know who is actually a nice person: her husband earns 50k per year minimum (I know because she told us at the time) and she works part time. She was saying it's ridiculous that they don't receive tax credits as they could really do with it.

I just don't get it!!! Surely if they wanted more combined income they should work full time instead of part time (a choice in person 2s case as they have free childcare 3 days per week). I know childcare is expensive. I was a single parent until recently. I had to rely on tax credits for a bit to top up my wages which I hated. They were such uncertain times but I'm so so grateful that kind of help was there when I was alone and poor (my son was conceived by rape). I've worked hard to earn a management role in a sector I love where I get to help people. I earn 22k, partner on minimum wage and we have 2 kids between us. I wouldn't expect financial help in my situation so I don't know why others do! I'm 28 so I'm not of a different generation to them or anything.

Sorry just wanted to get it off my chest!!!

[Caprisunorange]

I think it usually comes from people who are very familiar with the benefits system- maybe grew up with everyone being in it, or have been in it themselves- and feel entitled to it.

Personally I have never considered getting any help as it’s just not part of my radar or experience (I do recall my dad refusing to sign on as it was too humiliating ) and when I do get government help (free nursery hours HELLO) I get a warm fuzzy glow. Lovely stuff.

[Poppyfr33]

The issue is people live up to their incomes as it increases they spend more. Generalising now but some people feel entitled, they just need to learn to budget. My partner and I are on a fixed income below £16000 pa but still don’t go without.

[unlimiteddilutingjuice]

YANBU

I see similar sentiments to this all the time.

I think a lot of people don't understand how benefits work and imagine its possible to "get more in benefits that I do working" and its really not the case.
Both Tax Credits and (even more so) Universal Credit are calculated so that you are always better off in work.

A family that earns enough not to be entitled to Tax Credits/Universal Credit is always better off than a family in identical circumstances that arent entitled. The benefits taper away gradually as income increases to ensure this is the case.

Thats not to say that families don't face tough choices if they are right on the edge of entitlement. But that doesn't sound like the case with the people OP is talking about.

OP I suspect the hidden issue for the two women you mention is that they don't have full access to the family income.

[SweetheartNeckline]

I think there are a few issues tangled up in this.

1. Some men are unreasonable and financially abusive. Some men hoard their 6-figure salary while letting their wife give up hers to raise their joint DC but refuse to share their money. Those men are disgusting and I'm sorry your friend is married to one.

1. Some people on around £40, 000 - 60, 000 household income do often earn too much for (most) help, but, usually due to housing costs in the area they have to live for work at that level, don't have very much money left after bills.

1. Tax credits used to have a higher threshold, and child benefit used to be universal. It is never nice when something gets taken away.

1. Some people (our family included) seem to have more money than they logically should. This is often due to parental help, inheritance, previous divorce settlement, owning a rental property etc and not benefits "topping up" a lifestyle, but in a working class area that can be the assumption.

1. Some people give the illusion of working part time due to flexi, weekend or shift work, so people underestimate their earnings and again assume benefits top ups.

All of these factors, combined with a Government who demonise the poor, a media which loves to whip up some poverty porn and publish stories that "other" those it deems scroungers, a non-transparent benefits system and a sense of helplessness re Brexit and low wage increases, lead to the attitudes you've come across.

[Fairylea]

I think the media (hello daily mail, I’m looking at you) have made people think people get a lot on benefits for not doing very much.

The hatred towards low income families and disabled people under this government is disgusting.

[Jungster]

I agree, before I was a single parent and when I was earning good money I never gave benefits a thought but when I had hit the skids and my life was in the gutter there were people ''friends'' who grudged me benefits. One school friend said she was glad her husband's taxes were going to help me. Which I think she meant nicely.. I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Later when I was getting back on my feet and had fought for maintenance and my x was paying #x maintenance per month, she said ''oh I wish somebody would give us #x per month! as though I were the lucky one! She is married to her high earning husband and her house is like a palace and they've two very expensive cars in the drive, probably 3 now her eldest can drive! Such a bizarre mindset.

[Caprisunorange]

Her husbands taxes 🤣 how much of a loser do you have to be to lay claim to someone else’s tax contributions?!

[Zootrebilis]

Jungster I totally agree. I've also heard people in rl and on here express how "lucky" others are for receiving bare minimum maintenance!

[Lockheart]

Sounds like the lady in your first scenario is in a financially abusive relationship and could really use the money tbh.

[Coffeeisnecessary]

The only thing that I thought was a bit unfair for higher earners was when they took away the child benefit for anyone in the higher tax bracket, it was a blanket rule not defined by your household income, so 2 earners just under the tax bracket would still get it, but one just over and a non or low earner wouldn't despite the household income being nearly half. Didn't seem fair but I suppose thinking about it the other person could go back to work so maybe it is?!

[Zootrebilis]

Lockheart there's no indication of that. She said they share all finances/statements etc he just spends more than she would on days out for them as a family etc

[Caprisunorange]

Well the government don’t want to support people who chose not to work. Pain If you’re affected by it, but financially supporting people who chose not to work isn’t politically popular

[Lookingforadvice123]

YANBU. And yes the first situation sounds wrong - does her husband have a secret drug habit perhaps?

I do agree the more you have the more you spend though. I work 4 days earning circa £30k a year. DH works full time earning less, around £27k, but he also has a generous share package (which we don't benefit from in a disposable income sense because we've always spent it on work on the house/our wedding/house deposit, but at least we are fortunate to have been able to afford these without using loans). We only pay for one day of childcare a week (currently, this will rise as I'm expecting our second baby) but as we have this decent income, we spend it every single month without fail. We don't even eat out often or do anything luxurious.

[Kit10]

A few years ago we got a lot of our childcare subsidised but then we moved and I had to go full time as there were no part time jobs in my field around, even though I was earning more and working more I was bringing home less without the help of TC for childcare. I have no regrets and am happy to pay my way, but it was a bitter pill to swallow that upping my hours (and responsibilities as it was a higher job) resulted in less for my family albeit temporarily. It all worked out as the career progression pushed us further away from the cut off. Obviously I know that doesn't quite relate to what you've written, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I do sympathise with those close to the boundaries.

[SpottingTheZebras]

I do agree with you but often there are other things that can go with being a higher earner - much more expensive travel to work costs, especially when commuting to London (so I pay to park my car, spend an hour on the train and get the tube to get to central London plus occasionally a taxi if the weather is really awful) and then working hours aren’t friendly for childcare which can mean a nanny or combination of help. Both of these are far more expensive than someone who either walks or drives a couple of miles to work and leaves their car in a free car park, and in different parts of the country a day’s nursery fees are half the price of London area/SE. So if you are comparing based purely on salary, it can be very unfair and unrealistic. That’s before you even look at the difference in housing costs/mortgages etc.

[dogwoofbark]

Having moved to the States I now find a lot of British people pretty entitled.

[howabout]

I think a lot of people, especially in areas where housing and living costs are high, think their salaries are "high" when in fact they are not. This means they are left wondering why they can't afford a millionaire lifestyle relative to the "plebs". If people have young children they also tend to massively underestimate the cost of the second earner taking a job and / or overestimate the relative commensurate remuneration for family friendly second earner work.

[LightastheBreeze]

A few years ago people on £50-60k were getting tax credits, perhaps they are remembering those times.

Of course a lot of people didn't need this but I can remember getting about £40 a month and we were on reasonable wages, lots got this.

[Jungster]

spottingthezebras, well, yes, I agree it costs money to work and that's why when I first got back in to the workplace on a very low wage I felt poorer initially. Luckily things have got a bit better. Two very small (very small) raises in the last few years, but it costs money to work when you're not on BIG money as well. People on low to modest incomes still have mortgages.

The job must be worth more than just income if you're bending so far backwards to accommodate it. Which is not unusual. People derive identity and status from highly regarded professions and so on.

[Perfectly1mperfect]

Didn't seem fair but I suppose thinking about it the other person could go back to work so maybe it is?!

But it still wouldn't be fair. If a higher rate tax payers partner works, they still wouldn't get child benefit.

So you could have a person earning 48000 and their partner earning 12000. They wouldn't get child benefit.
Another couple could earn 40000 each and they get it.
It's not a fair system.

[Gwenhwyfar]

"plus occasionally a taxi if the weather is really awful"

That is your choice though.

[BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou]

I don’t even earn enough to pay tax!

Some people are amazed that I don’t get any “help”, I don’t even get Child Benefit because DH is a higher rate tax payer.

I dont believe I SHOULD get any help but my DH is a good man and we genuinely have “joint income” but not all are in that boat....

[Gwenhwyfar]

It is true that in some EU countries anyone with dependants pays less tax. It's taken away at source so nobody thinks of it as a benefit, but I suppose it's like having tax credits for all parents.

[cementpointing]

i dont think its that unreasonable tbh and its something that gets on my nerves too, not with low income families but eg a family where there are a teacher and a social worker and they have grandparents nearby to do childcare collecting and have minimal costs in that area and they still get child benefit to buy the kids i pads and put the rest in an isa for the children to save up £12,000 for each child, that's what pisses me off.

contrast that with a family where eg daddy is an employed associate in a law firm earning £75,000 and mum is sahm cos they have no one to help with childcare and she didnt earn enough for the family to gain by going to work in her job as a grade 7 civil servant after two lots of childcare are out or it was didn't create a good family dynamic and they are living on so much less and dont get "topped up" by child benefit.

[Kit10]

Lightasthebreeze

People on £50k ish can still get TC as the threshold for 2 kids with childcare element is around that point (though it's around that point where childcare vouchers become the better choice)