freelancing and "careers progression" (whatever that is)

[hatwoman]

following on from this thread on careers and kids and also from stuff going on in my life at the moment I've been thinking a lot on whether it's possible to "progress" once you're freelance.

Like many freelancers (or independent consultants, as we put on our cvs)in my line of work I left employment mid-career, with a reasonable cv, decent reputation, and a load of contacts.

I've had 2 years now and I've enjoyed the freedom from office politics, and freedom from working with/managing people I wouldn't choose to work with/manage.(that wasn't all, or even most of my former colleagues, but it was some iyswim). I've adapted to flexible times/non-office environment BUT I feel a bit like this is it, same stuff over and over...

It's compounded by the fact that we moved out of London - for a suck-it-and-see 2-year experiment and need to decide whether to stay or go back. If we go back then I'll continue freelancing but would apply for attractive jobs, if they come up. If we stay - then applying for jobs will be out.

So...I'd be really interested to know what people's long-term game plan has been? How have you "developed" yourself when not in an employment situation. I find it hard to keep myself motivated in that respect. And has anyone been s-e for a long time (say 10 years) and then gone back into employment?

Hello, hatwoman. I'm nowhere near as far along the path as you (just a couple of years' freelancing, interspersed with staff jobs), but can tell you that the freelance journalists I know seem to try to get some sort of permanent "gig", often editing a secialist magazine/ website. This is not a full-time thing, but keeps them going financially and in terms of visibility and ego. This sort of thing would also fit your criterion of "progression", as it requires co-ordination with suppliers (printers, webmasters, advertisers, whatever), and is a responsible role (that is: you yourself are reponsible for contracting out extra work, e.g. other freelance writers to fill the pages.)They fit other things around it, some treating it seriously, some taking it for granted.

I'm sorry if this is the wrong industry, but hope it gives you some ideas?

thanks WingedVictory - different industry though...one of my issues with anything permanent/office based is location. I can manage a day a week in London, 2 tops.(and there's nothing outside London in my industry) I've appled for a position as a trustee of a charity in my line of work. unpaid (all trustee positions are) but keeps me involved with strategic/long-term planning, and possibly a wee bit of hands-off management, which would be good. but need a bit more to keep my oomph up.

Hi hatwoman
I feel a bit like you I think.

I had a 'career' job, six figure package, yada yada yada... but by the time my youngest was ready to start school I was burnt out by the constant juggling of childcare and school requests etc, so I jumped at a redundancy option and set myself up as a consultant.

I enjoy all the +ve aspects you mention, but I never really feel I 'belong' anywhere any more

• not with the 'social mums' in my area, as I tend to work during the daytime
• not in any particular office or company, as I'm only ever around for short projects

I look longingly at career jobs I know I could do, but then remember the stress of setting up and maintaining the 'support network' to make it possible, and the exhaustion of juggling

I'm feeling very 'flat' at the moment - the first time in my life I haven't really had a clear career path or goal....
I'm hoping that once the kids are at senior school, and a bit more self-sufficient then I may be able to do something more demanding?

NS - I know what you mean by senior school...but the point at which I can take on "more demanding" stuff keeps moving. it used to be f-t school, then it became secondary school but, with moving, I fear even that's not possible. it might come when they've left school/home....but if we're out of London I doubt even that. My industry is low paid so my salary couldn't cope with too many nights away from home. and not sure my marriage could either...

I feel your pain. Agree with WingedVictory - I'm a journalist too - but with the important proviso that in-house work is rare as rocking horse sh*t at the moment, on account of the recession.

It's a real balancing act, whether you enjoy and/or progress during a freelance career. I'm exploring some book proposal ideas, mainly on account of Not So Much Work Around. We'll see...

hello stranger! hope you're well. I've got a book proposal on the cards too...but am scared that'll just take me away from regular work (and pay absolutely k'all).

hatwoman, those trustee positions wouldn't cut you off from other opportunities, on the grounds of "conflict of interest, would they?" That would be bloody annoying. However, I have rather a personal dislike of not being paid for working, as I have had a couple of jobs where I wasn't paid (one), or had to struggle to be paid (two). Freelances get very annoyed about this sort of thing! However, that is my personal experience, and if this is the norm for trustees, it's not quite so piss-takingly cheeky!

And have you decided whether the 2-year living out of London experiment is going to "end"?

(P.S. motherinferior, I like your name!)

Hi all, at last an interesting thought provoking thread! I resigned last autumn from a high-pressured (but really dull!) job in the City, having tried desperately to get the "flexible" working to work. My son started school this jan - is still mostly half-days. I know what you mean about the not-belonging, neither in 1 camp nor the other. So I decided to set up my own business which then leaves me free for some of the socialising. I just couldn't do nothing. I sell usborne children books, so do occasional evenings or weekends and some day activities. What i really love about it is that it is very, very social which my old job wasn't and that i am having to learn new skills eg marketing, sales, event organisation (if I can't find an event to do i organise my own!). I am a chartered Accountant so you can imagine how different this is. i don't at the moment have a long term plan. i like the freedom. Will i get bored? Probably! But just enjoying for now! It's very hard though getting the balance right.

wv - in a sense yes - I wouldn;t be able to work for this particular charity - but that's fine. and yes - it's a legal requirement for a charity - has to have unpaid trustees.

NormaSnorks, I have been turning your post over and over again in my mind, since it is a very striking and concise exposition of the trouble any woman faces in trying to have a job after children (and, wouldn't you know it, few men have the same problem. not none, but few). However, trying to do the juggling with unpredictable freelance work is also a PITA, as there is no contract to point to, no set hours to work, no being able to complete tasks because a freelance's work is never done... unless she has none, and then paying the childcare is a bit of a problem, too (unless DP/DH does that, and the career really is supplementary). I've decided I can't really get involved with journalism again for a while, because I just need to be too flexible. DS is in nursery on Mondays and Fridays, but if someone wanted to rearrange an interview or site visit, I'd end up looking unprofessional. I can't always call back when I need to, as DS would be getting cross in the background. I've decided to revert to proof-reading and whatever translation I can get, in order to have no telephone work, and no need to depend on input from other people to meet my deadlines. Sorry this is not much help to everyone else, but I've written at great length because I want to say I understand the dilemmas facing us all, and hope we all find our way of dealing with them.

WV - I am actually one of the 'lucky ones' I think, as my DH also works for himself, so has flexibility and can help share the childcare responsibilities.

I wonder if I could ever go back into an office-job type environment though - it feels as if I have become too accustomed to this 'new' lifestyle! I find I look on the idea of any significant commuting with a mixture of incredulity and disdain - it mostly just seems such a blatant waste of time...

However, rather than my freelance lifestyle being less stressful I usually find it is more - especially if I am juggling a few projects at the same time. There is simply NO ONE to share the workload with, or to discuss stuff with, or delegate to etc.
Although I do think professional networking sites have made life easier to some extent - I have contacted people remotely for help and advice, and occasionally sub-contracted stuff.

my biggest source of stress is the fact that my mum thinks I'm free for coffee because I'm not in an office and, because I occassionally grump when she calls in un-announced she thinks I work too hard. despite that fact that in total I work about 3.5 days a week

This thread is fascinating and very reassuring.

Hatwoman, I have a similar feeling with being out of London. I can still carry on freelancing out of London, but it's not the same as really all meetings and information gathering need to be done in London. So I end up doing the scraps of work that could be done anywhere with internet and a laptop, but they're not really the interesting scraps.

I dream of going to evening events and receptions at Downing Street and expensive art galleries like I used to with my work. I do miss the freedom and excitement of dressing up and having an identity that can be quantified and appreciated -not just "mummywhotellssmallchildrentobrushyourteethyesnowplease!".

I am relatively lucky in that DH looks after DD3 and does the school run once a week which means that I have a day to go to meetings etc. Maybe I need to start doing that more.

I think you work from home? That's also particulary isolating, even if you're working on interesting material you're still looking at the dishwasher etc - you're still surrounded by the trappings of domesticity.

Much as I love my children I do miss the old me. I guess that's a fairly common phenomemen with women having children later having established their careers.

I do have strange thoughts of having another child because it gets me out of the whole "where is my career going now DD3 can be left with childminder and I have the opportunity to face up to my career but don't know how to". I read a rather depressing book at my mum's called "The Cinderella Complex" that said how many women had another child because it was easier than facing up to career questions!

Oh, yes, that problem, Norma. I think there was an AIBU thread about that a few months ago, if you want to feel in good company.

Another freelance journalist here. I know I'm lucky in that DH is also freelance and if I need someone to cover the childcare when I'm doing interviews etc he can do it (though there is a fair amount of negotiation involved, depending on what each of us has on).

I've now built up a couple of specialist editing gigs as well as feature writing - so I've if not progressed my career that much at least I've not gone massively backwards.

I occasionally fantasise about having a job because I'd love not to have work hanging over me that too often I end up doing in the evenings, but for me it's too clear that this is going to be a really useful way to work once DS is at school (though of course I may be due a reality check then). I work three days a week and think that will translate into a five day school hours week reasonably well.

And then the other thing is that I think this might be the future of journalism anyhow - writers working for themselves from home for a variety of employers, while the number of staffers continues to diminish and the only ones with jobs are more in management-type roles. So I might well have ended up doing this whether or not I had children.

What I really, really like about this is what matters is not that you sit in an office for a set number of hours but that you produce the goods. How or when you do it really doesn't matter to anyone - and I think that really should be the future of work.

Ive got a slacker freelance husband too. problem is he earns more in 2 days/week consulting than I can earn in a month. (not that much of a problem, for obvious reasons...) but the irony is that I enjoy my work and he's kind of indifferent to his. which establishes all sorts of weird dynamics.

eg work for me is a bit like a chosen leisure activity, whereas his work makes a more considerable contribution to the household.

and then, because he does most of his work in an office, my running round after kids - on his office days - somehow seems less visible. whereas my work/chosen leisure activity/sitting at a desk ignoring children seems more visible. my work intrudes on family life. his doesn't. seemingly.

but he is ace and does more than half the running round after the kids so I can;t really complain.

Oh, so much of this thread resonates with me and my work situation. I've worked freelance from home since having DD2 four years ago, and around having DC3 - mainly writing and editing for an agency with some additional book projects on top. My work still feels rather like a hobby in that I earn so little (compared with DH) that it still has to get fitted around the school run/half-terms etc. I end up carving out slivers of work time late at night, at the week-end, DC3's naps etc and have jsut, rahter reluctantly, put DC3 into nursery for one day a week to give me a few hours at least to concentrate solely on work.
No idea what career progression lies in store or where we will end up (currently in London but will probably move - theorectically this shouldn't affect my work too much).

TBH, with three children under six and minimal childcare/family support, I'm just quite pleased to be able to get any work done at all. The number of other mothers who say to me 'You're so lucky being able to work from home etc etc' makes me think there are benefits to this freelance lark (though I suspect they have no idea how little I earn!).

I've freelanced consulted for 10 years now, mainly successfully although the past year has been tough. Recently I was asked back to my old job and old company for a freelance stint. Several things

• I realised that I have progressed hugely in the past 10 years. Not only am I much better at doing my job (and I already had 20 years' experience when I left) but I am also much better at seeing the big picture, managing my time, standing my ground; I have much broader experience and am much quicker off the mark
• I am also a much better, more organised worker and time manager. I get more done in a day than half my office comrades do in a week
• initially I really enjoyed being back in a company and considered asking for a job. The backup (it, admin, travel, tea, stationery), the social benefits (adults, nobody screams if you lock the loo door, wide variety of lunchtime choices) were very seductive
• however, I then woke up and realised I cannot stand the office politics, the NOISE of open-plan offices, the horrors of knowing you are going to be doing the same stuff week after week, the need to agree with your team in front of the client even if you don't

I do consider myself a business - i am a limited company, and I make sure to go on at least one training course per year. My kids are also past the small stage so I have more autonomy. But it's definitely freelance for me forever.

Slightly hysterical laugh from me on this this morning, as I stayed up all right doing a "controlled translation" (sample to get some more work). NO idea it would take so bloody long, as it was only 5 pages! I have just had a reply from the person I did it for, saying she thought it was really good, and I am remembering all the things I muttered and swore last night, about not wanting to do this again.

Any tips for refusing work if it is offered? I have not yet decided, but may have to, to save myself!. I thought I had gone out of the all-nighter business when I left university. Talk about career progression; it feels as though I am back at university! I have already thought of putting them off with an enormous rate, but, being lawyers, they would probably think it was normal and pay it, then load on the work because I indicated I wanted it, with such a businesslike demand for money! Oh, dear!

Winged, I have the same dilemma - have fully booked myself having agreed with DH I would only do 2.5 days which is rapidly creeping into 3.

Have been offered a really interesting contract but just can't fit it all in with existing work commitments. Trying to find a balance between spending time with DC and working/putting them into childcare etc..

Could you put them off until you have a gap in your schedule? I often find people are suprisingly keen to wait if you're very busy as it reassures them that you're good - but that might be different in your field if timeframes are more pressing..

Star -how's it going with DC3at nursery? DD3 will start with childminder at end of next month and part of me is excited by idea of building up work again and part of me just wants to grab my baby and run away from the working world!

Hi, hattyyellow, these particular translations (if there are any) would come in as and when the lawyers get judgements they need translated, so it's time sensitive enough for them not to want to wait months, although I guess a couple of days is all right: no way am I going to say I'll turn something big around in a day!

Your post actually made me think of another issue which I would be interested to hear people's views on: the "danger"/"relief" of having a big client/contract, which one can depend on/comes to depend on...

I certainly feel the same as many on this thread. I'm a 'freelance' (ha ha) PR and copywriter and have one big client who takes up a lot of my time. And although I really enjoy the work, I do sometimes get frustrated and rue not going back to Financial PR after I had ds.

DH is keen for me to get a 'proper' job, or at least earn some more money, but I don't have the motivation. And the career progression is a big thing - I have considered doing some training, but its the type of training that would only be useful if I went back into a full time full on role and I feel slightly sick at the thought of that. Its tricky, and I don't know what the answer is. Does that help?

Oh, I actually meant is anyone else scared of having so much of their income come from one source, or is it, by contrast, a relief to have a so far reliable chunk from one source?

I am doing most of my work for one consultancy at the moment and was quite relieved when an old client phoned up and booked me in for a project from May onwards!

My current client is lovely, but we're kind of friends as well and it's awkward in a way when she has to raise anything with me/I have to chase her for payment etc. Will be a relief to work for someone else for a while.

However, she does put the most work my way so even though I'd rather spread my working time over more clients - I can't really turn down her work over a vague feeling of unease..I do worry what would happen if I messed up one of the contracts in some way as we do rely financially on both our incomes and she is my main referee for other clients..

I've been freelance for 7 years, with some ups adn downs - but feel like i might have reached the end of the line with it, as regular income is so hard to find, so am applying for jobs now.

I do find the motivation hard, and now teh children are both at school and I live in a rural place, it's quite isolating so i've ended up doing voluntary stuff to be involved in something outside the house. Feel really mixed about what to do next and where to go, it's a really hard choice.