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Bracing it with the boss

52 replies

lisalisa · 01/05/2003 10:57

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whellid · 01/05/2003 11:17

Not much advice really LisaLisa. I was really nervous when telling my boss about ds, especially as I also wanted a pay rise due to a huge increase in reponsibility. I just went straight in one morning and before I could talk myself out of it, went into his office and told him that I had two things to discuss, and that in light of the second he might find the first cheeky, but I had to ask. It worked brilliantly, I got a really good pay rise, and a better maternity package than I should have had.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if you are confident that you deserve the same maternity package as you had last time then you are working fom a strong position. It is hard to negotiate for personal rather than client gain, but you are negotiating for your family as a whole, not just yourself.
If they don't give you an enhanced package are there other firms that you could join that would give you a deal similar to the one you had with this company with your last child?
Good luck - let us know how you get on.

Gini · 01/05/2003 11:18

I would just go in and inform them, then also say that you are asuming that you will recieve the same payments as before, as in your case it should be seen as custom and practice.

My firm also had the bare minimum, and asked me to write a few policies for them to mull over (i was in HR)when I informed them I was pregnant. They led me up the garden path that I would be on full pay whilst on maternity leave but never got it in writing (doh!) and ended up with stat. So, If they agree - get it in writing!

Meanmum · 01/05/2003 11:25

Yes, I would be working the line of custom and practice for yourself as per the initial one you received. They have already set the precedent as they created a special package for you when you joined and there is little justification as to why they could not do this now. Of course they will argue that what the company policy says but your situation is different because you joined with an enhanced one and they need to honour that for any subsequent ones. If they did not put in a special clause to you when you joined about only enhancing it for this pregnancy then you have the right to expect it for any subsequent pregnancies because that is their custom and practice in relation to yourself. It is irrespective of what others in the business are entitled to they altered their policy for you.

To be fair if I was working at your business and knew you had received an enhanced package I would have the right to ask them for the same for myself and they would find it very hard to refuse due to the precedent they have set.

It's always hard asking for things for yourself but remember no one else cares about you and you have to look out for yourself. If you know what I mean

Meanmum · 01/05/2003 11:27

Will you let us know how you get on as I'll be interested to hear what their response is. Give them time to think over the issue when you discuss with them in case they feel cornered and this will give you time to consider anything you didn't say that you should have (always the case I find) and a second chance to put your case forward.

If they come back with an out right no don't accept that but thank them and inform them that you would like time to think about their answer and formulate a response. This leaves it open for you to put forward more arguments against their reasons for refusing.

lisalisa · 01/05/2003 11:51

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outofpractice · 01/05/2003 11:55

I managed to negotiate a better maternity payment just because I was so stressed and insecure that I did not raise it at all, until the point where I just could not manage financially (well, I mean I was desperately worried about it rather than actually going bankrupt). I blurted out that I might have to leave / start moonlighting and all of a sudden there was a meeting and a senior person just okayed it to give me extra. I think they had just not realized that I really needed the money. You should not flinch from telling them what your outgoings are and exactly why you need the figure you are asking for.

Gini · 01/05/2003 12:05

I have a full explanation of custom and pratice, it is a bit lenghty, shall I post it here or does anyone want it sent to them personally?

lisalisa · 01/05/2003 12:13

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Gini · 01/05/2003 12:24

Here goes - yes it is law from an employment law book - Don't say i didn't warn ya it was long!

Custom and practice

In some limited circumstances, terms can be implied into a contract as a matter of custom and practice. In order for this to happen, the contract term must be reasonable, clearly and precisely defined and widely known in the industry or in the particular workplace involved. If the term meets these criteria, then it will be implied into an individual employee's contract even if he or she was not aware of its existence. Because it is difficult to assess with any certainty whether these criteria are met, it not advisable to rely on custom and practice as a source of contract terms; express terms are always preferable.

It is important to note that a term does not become part of a contract as a matter of custom and practice simply because the employer or employee has acted in a particular way over a period of time. The litmus test is whether the company or the employee was acting in that way because they viewed themselves as under a legal obligation to do so.

Take, for example, a company that operates from a working assumption, set out in an internal management policy document, that it will make redundancy payments in excess of the statutory minimum when it implements redundancies. Each time there is a redundancy exercise, it reviews that assumption to ensure that the company can afford to make the enhanced payments. Over the course of several years, it makes the enhanced payments, but there then comes a time when it decides it can afford only the statutory minimum. The company is unlikely to be breaching the contracts of those who are dismissed by paying them the minimum, because it never intended that the enhanced payments should be a contractual entitlement, and never indicated to the workforce that they were.

EEF Associations can give advice to companies that are unsure about the contractual status of company policies ( EEF Associations ).

Employer's implied obligations

Over the years, the civil courts have decided that some terms should be implied into all contracts of employment. These terms continue to evolve, but currently the most important implied obligations on an employer are:

  1. Duty to pay . The employer has a duty to pay the employee, provided the employee is ready and willing to work. In general, an employer is not obliged to provide an employee with work. There are two exceptions to this, where an employer is under an obligation to provide work. One is where the employee's earnings depend on work being done, such as in the case of pieceworkers or those paid on a commission basis. The other is where the employee's position in the labour market is dependent on him or her continuing to work, because lack of work leads to immediate loss of reputation or skills. The courts have accepted that this could apply to traders in the financial markets in the City of London, so it could also extend to other employees with specialist knowledge or expertise that quickly loses its value if it is not used.
  2. Trust and confidence . The employer has a duty not to act in a way that is likely to destroy or seriously damage the relationship of trust and confidence between the employer and the employee, unless it has a reasonable and proper reason for doing so. This is an important implied term, which has been applied and developed in many recent court cases. It would apply, for example, where an employer fails to support an employee who is being bullied or harassed. In some circumstances, it can have the effect of limiting the employer's ability to exercise its express powers under the contract. For example, a company could be in breach of this implied term if it used an express power to move an employee to different work without giving the employee any support or training in the new role.
  3. Health and safety . The employer is obliged to take reasonable care for the health and safety of the employee. The employer has similar duties under the law of negligence and the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.

Employee's implied obligations

The employee also has implied duties, the most important of which are these:

The employee is obliged to co-operate with the employer, including obeying the employer's lawful and reasonable instructions. Whether an instruction is lawful and reasonable will depend in part on the express terms in the employee's contract dealing with job duties.

The employee is also obliged to give loyal service to the employer. This term may mean that the employee should not be involved in competing activities or work for a competitor in his or her spare time, if this poses a clear risk that the employer will be substantially harmed. The term certainly means that the employee should not disclose confidential information that he or she comes across in the course of work.

Like the employer, the employee is under a duty not to act in a way that breaches the relationship of trust and confidence between them, unless he or she has reasonable and proper cause for doing so.

The employee is also under an implied duty to take reasonable care for his or her own health and safety and that of fellow employees and to exercise reasonable care and skill in his or her work.

GillW · 01/05/2003 12:31

Sorry to be a damp squib - but if your company is already offering more than the statutory amount you're in a better position than many (most?) people anyway.

I'd be pretty mad if I thought that some people in my company were getting a better than statutory package while others of us were only getting the statutory minimum, or effectively being denied even that.

Yes they can sidestep the minimum "rights" surprisingly easily - if you take the extended mat leave they don't have to give you the same job back, only an "equivalent" one, and while the definition of "equivalent" includes things like pay, pension rights, etc, it doesn't include WHERE you work. So given a choice of coming back to a job several hours a day of travelling time away after extended maternity leave, or to the more convenient one you had after the minimum period what do you think most people do if they do not to go back to work at all? Hey presto, the right to extended maternity leave has been abolished in your company.

lisalisa · 01/05/2003 12:44

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Gini · 01/05/2003 12:47

maybe not technically but if you were to leave and claim unfair dismissal I think a tribunal would look at you more favourably than them....

Meanmum · 01/05/2003 13:07

Yes, and even though you are at a legal firm precedent within HR is a very big issue. I, and every other HR professional I know will bow to precedent especially when it relates to issues like maternity pay. I appreciate that the law is quite clear in terms of custom and practice but the reality is very different and I would find it quite hard to believe that your firm would not offer you the same package as they did when you joined. They might not want to, they might debate it, they might give you the impression they won't but when given a nudge and aware of the fact you are willing to stand your ground I bet you they give in. Sorry for not responding sooner was having issues with my computer.

Also, remember that they still value your work and that you are an asset to their business. You seem to have overlooked the fact that you are important and valued and losing you may be a bigger issue for them than giving you a little extra money.

Gini · 01/05/2003 13:17

here here meanmum - agree totally

kaz33 · 01/05/2003 13:22

No advice but just wanted to wish you good luck lisalisa.

lisalisa · 01/05/2003 14:19

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Meanmum · 01/05/2003 14:25

What's your relationship like with him. I'm picturing this old man with a sour face looking over his pinz nez (sp?) at you as you put in a request. I have this image of him as Scrooge and you as poor little Oliver Twist asking for some more porridge.

Remember your self worth and the value you bring to that comany. Go in their armed with a commercial perspective, therefore, how much your bring into the company and how much this will actually cost them. I bet the percentage of what they have to pay you is quite small when weighed up against the profit they make on your charge out rates. It's even harder to refute cold hard numbers. Don't lay this on him just yet. Save it for when the conversation looks like it is going nowhere and bring it out. Hope I'm not telling you to suck eggs.

Bobbins · 01/05/2003 14:28

I have an issue regarding pay as well, and I'm bracing myself for a meeting with HR first thing tomorrow morning. YUK. I've just got a new job and only today have I found out the pay and its crap. It's 2 grades higher than my current position, and on a 12 month attachment basis, so its considered acting pay. They have offered me only £1500 above what I am currently earning. The new postion involves shift work and working 4 weekends on and then four off, so it is much more unsociable hors than in my present position. So, I was really quite surprised at the offer. I would still take the job as it will be great experience, but I feel like what's the point money wise.

I don't know what to say tomorrow

Sorry lisalisa, I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I do sympathise with you.

Bobbins · 01/05/2003 14:31

The offer has really taken the shine from something that I was really excited about.

Bobbins · 01/05/2003 14:32

That should be £1500 more p.a.

BBC pay is shite. Don't want people to think I'm acting like a spoilt brat.

lisalisa · 01/05/2003 14:37

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Meanmum · 01/05/2003 14:38

Why would something 2 grades up only have an increase of £1500. In all of my different roles our grading structure has always meant more than a £1500 jump between grades. Is it that you are at the top end of your grade for salary and they are offering you the very bottom salary for the grade you are going to?

Are your benefits being enhanced in line with the grade increase. Some of our grades are entitled to family health care cover and other enhancements so maybe they haven't told you abot this. Mind you they're a bit daft if they think that is enough of a sweetener for you to take on more responsibility, less sociable hours, more work and for a finite period. My advice in this instance would be to tell them exactly how you feel. You were very excited at the prospect of taking on this new role for all it would offer you in terms of skills etc but you are now reconsidering due to the financial recompense they are offering. Tell them the shift work etc will affect your childcare, work life balance and so on.

Once again, if you were in our business and we wanted you to fill a role 2 grades higher than you were at present and you came back with these arguments I would be willing to do something for you money wise. They obviously value you enough to give you the opportunity and are just trying it on to see whether you accept it or not.

This sounds awful but I obviously do the same thing in my role as ultimately I am trying to get the best deal for the company. I always start low and am happy to negotiate to a level I believe is acceptable to the company. If the employee doesn't negotiate then I win win if they do then I see how far they go. It's a bit of a game (not fair I know but that's life) just like if you are bartering in a market or something.

kaz33 · 01/05/2003 14:38

Bobbins - If you are goung to get something out of the experience, enjoy it and it will enable you to progress in your chosen field then GO FOR IT. Personally, I would be most concerned about the lost weekends as that is going to be a huge change for your family.

Meanmum · 01/05/2003 14:41

To both of you with issues and everyone else. Stand up for your rights. Understand exactly what you are entitled to and ensure you get it. You are entitled to it. An old boss of mine taught me this lesson very well. He always pushed back at HR and they always gave in. In fact I see it every day and rarely have I ever seen HR not give an employee what they want if it was justifiable. Therefore, if the employee has a good enough reason/excuse they tend to cave.

Apologies to all those other HR mumsnetters out there if this offends but it's what I've seen in my career.

Yes, sometimes HR will stand firm but that will be because of principal or if they don't wish to create a precedent. However, both of you sound like valued employees and I'm sure they will bend for both of you. There are always ways around things.

Bobbins · 01/05/2003 14:46

Meanmum> do you have attachments or some sort of equivalent in your company? Does the fact that it's an attachment mean that they are justified in offering less. I really don't fancy working alongside people doing the same hours and job as me and earning at least a couple of grand less than them. There is one other person who has just started in the role, but in a permanent capacity. Am I justified in asking if they will be on the same rate as me?

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