Is anyone else an academic who has not produced enough research while having kids and is now in the s***?

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

There are lots of academics on MN, just wondering if there is anyone else in my position.

Am pg with 3rd dc in 5 years. Have had hyperemesis and other problems in all 3 pgs, which on top of 2 maternity leaves means heaps of time off work. In the meantime I have completely lost research momentum and produced sod all apart from a few book reviews. I was not submitted for RAE (though fortunately my dept did very well without me so none of my colleagues are holding it against me personally.)
Every time I come back it takes me all my time to get back up to speed with teaching and admin, get on top of all the changes in my field etc, and I only ever seem to make baby steps towards producing anything before I am sick or pregnant again.
Just had uncomfortable meeting with (supportive) HoD at which she broke news to me that I am about to get a scary letter from Personnel and a process is going to start which will probably include ritual disembowelling/change to a teaching only contract if I don't get something submitted before baby is due. Which would be fine as long as the foetus behaves and sickness holds off - am only just back at work after 2 months off with HG.

Serves me right for having children, doesn't it?

porn, I think you've just hit on the RAE-designers' cunning strategy to do whatever they like. Congratulations on submitting your proposal, btw.

good luck meeting your next deadline, Kathy.

I'm absolutely crawling here, output-wise and trying not to get about how long it's taking me to do anydangthing.

motivation not the problem - lack of time + exhaustion = not such a good writing time, that's all.

So can I. My best study/creative time is the morning. By the time DS is in bed I am zapped out. Its really difficult.

I agree, my best work times are the first half of the morning (ie from 7ish) and the evening, both of which get pretty much wiped out by children even though they go to nursery all day. I am trying to retrain myself though, as I'm going to have kids around the house for the next 18 years or so!

The 'professors as writers' book talked about self-imposed rules that stop you writing, ie you feel like you can't begin because you only think it's worth doing it if you can get a long enough chunk of work; I was definitely doing this and the 'writing for an hour a day' thing and the 'keeping a track of hours worked and number of words produced' thing seem to be helping me make better use of the time I have got.

I think if you have no childcare and are trying to write after an exhausting day looking after kids it's a rather different issue though; maybe the thing here is to set yourself small achievable targets and give yourself lots of praise for meeting them! If you only have a couple of hours of evening a day instead of whole days of course you're going to move slowly; you should be giving yourself a huge pat on the back for getting anything done at all!

I've been reading this thread with interest and just want to chip in a few thoughts rather than continue with the furtive lurking.

I cut my academic teeth, as it were, in the UK, in a very RAE-focused university and found it very hard to produce publications at the level that was expected. I managed well enough but was always aware that other 'stars' were doing much better. When I got pregnant 3 yrs ago with my 2nd, I became very stressed about it all and came to the conclusion that I couldn't go on as things were. So I applied for and got an academic job outside the UK where there is no RAE/REF and the pressures were much less intense. And lo and behold I have managed to write far more here in a short space of time than ever before, and it's the stuff that 'counts' in UK terms.

I have to qualify all of this by saying that I do have a stay-at-home partner, which I know makes a HUGE difference. I'm not denying that, and I'm very lucky. But the academic environmnent that I'm in now pays loads better, is much less stressful, and I feel far more creative and freed up to just get on with it. And it works!

My plan now is just to exploit this space and then go back to the UK when I'm in a position to get a Chair off the back of my publications. Or I might get sucked into the more relaxed, better quality of life here . . . who knows! But my main point is that I really feel the pressures of the UK system actually work perversely against the types of output they want to encourage. Academic work is not performed to order. It takes space, mental creativity, thinking time, experimentation, confidence . . . so don't beat yourselves up. It's tough enough.

I actually think, looking back, that the UK system can be hugely damaging to academics' sense of self worth and confidence. I'm surprised that people still put up with it, to be honest.

what country are you in then puddlejumper? I've just moved back to Oz...

Kathy - thanks for kind words! I am doing just what you said atm, though it does go against the control - freaky grain rather a lot bit!

That's interesting Puddlejumper. I'm really glad it's going well for you now. Would love to know where in the world you are too!

I really liked your comment, ' It takes space, mental creativity, thinking time, experimentation, confidence . . . ' It's nice to see that acknowledged.
I have definitely struggled with the shift to trying to work in an environment where academic work is seen as something you can plan rather than something creative. I have found it very inhibiting to be always having to account for my time and be upfront about my plans when sometimes you want to dip a toe into a certain area and see how it turns out. We are always getting asked 'Why haven't you produced the output you said you would produce?' and sometimes the truthful answer is just 'well, I tried but once I'd got into the area I realised it wasn't as fruitful as I thought it was going to be....' but this isn't really accepted; I've learnt to deal with these meetings instead now by focusing on the outputs I am going to produce and knowing when to keep my own counsel about what I am really working on!

Yes, the writing thing is such a bugger, two hours snatched here and there between school and nursery runs and cooking the dinner and all that stuff does not make for clear thinking.

I am struck by what fennel says about children being little for a long time and during the the years when most people are forging/consolidating their careers.

You see I wish there was an official 'mummy track' where it was recognised that you would ease off for a while but still be able to return to it properly later.
One of the lecturers in another dept in my institution (a research star ) was allowed to go part-time after her third child was born with the option of going full-time again later. If only that kind of practice were universal.

Re spending time with dcs while they're little - I took a full year's mat leave with ds and only 6 months with dd but I don't feel like I missed out on her babyhood because of it. Not sure why not. I must have spent ages and ages giving ds my undivided attention but I hardly remember it - must have been either sleep-deprived or ignoring him whilst on MN or probably both

I have just been thinking about this issue - I am considering asking for a working arrangement where I can take 1 month's unpaid leave each year in order to spend more time with DD/ having a life etc(similar to parental leave I suppose). Did a google search to see if other universities offer this (I'm sure I saw something in the THES about some places offering this to save money). I found one that allows it and suggests examples of what you might like to use it for - one of which is ...... to undertake research! So you can take unpaid time off to do what you are paid to do.
There are days when I would just like to stop altogether and stay at home and make bread.

ha, FouFoucault - maybe I should claim that is what I'm doing!

it's funny isn't it - I do sort of feel like i'm missing out on dd's babyhood, because I'm so busy looking after ds as well. (it could also be because she's so large and lively, she looks and feels like an older baby) but I'm finding the busy-ness quite good for my sanity - with ds I was so isolated I felt utterly mired-in, but now I can, in fact, get both of them out of the house, that going back to work siome day seems quite feasible. hard to explain.

this thread is also really helping me keep chipping away. I am really truly grateful for that.

Phdlife
Is it also about confidence? Perhaps with your second you have more confidence as a mother - does that translate into confidence in future work?
I think I went back to work too early (although I still had 6 months off) - I had not developed much confidence in myself as a mother so thought I would get back to doing what I knew - except I couldn't do that either! That was not a good time. I think I want to make up for it by taking the unpaid leave - I think I've also got to the point where I care less - I would rather see DD at sports day than be seen at a meeting which meet one day possible marginally increase my chances of a promotion that would give me even more to do in even less time.
Anyway I'm supposed to be writing a paper for a conference next week that I don't want to go to - and am concerned that I'm starting to sound cynical and jaded - don't want to put any of "young 'uns off"!

possibly a bit - also in the UK I was really terribly isolated - academic "friends" became thin when I finished working in the dept, vanished altogether when I had ds . But here I am surrounded by family and some really good old friends, which is brilliant for morale. I am regularly hounded by a mate who is a prof in a completely unrelated field but my staunchest supporter. It helps.

You do not sound particularly cyincal or jaded to me. As much as I am starting to feel like an academic career may one day be possible, knowing precisely how much work is involved makes me wonder if I really want that any more.

(also pmsl at being a "young one", bless you!)

PMSL @ taking unpaid leave to do research.... but actually.... I can really imagine it helping.
When I was doing my PhD (full-time pre-children, I had it easy ) I used to go to the library on Saturday mornings and because I felt extra-virtuous about working at the weekend I gave myself permission to read whatever I felt like even if it apparently wasn't very relevant. Needless to say it turned out that the Saturday morning reading was where all the best ideas and original things about the thesis came from.

Phdlife
I am always pulling people up about saying 'young' when they really mean 'career young'! I did not get PhD until I was in my late thirties (although I had worked in the field before then) and had DD half way through it - so take heart if you are not so young. Although I did also find that getting the PhD 're-set' things - e.g. not being able to go for promotion until a certain amount of time after the PhD - as if everything that had gone before didn't count. In some cases however this can work in your favour - e.g. you are eligible for post-doc awards etc.
Having friends who are supportive - or just who understand a little bit what you are going through is great.

Just checking in - still reading, even if I'm not commenting! Busy week with a poster and starting on some new ideas. All this, of course, at the expense of the paper I'm supposed to be finishing off...

FouFoucault's talk of conferences raises an interesting question - anyone else find that their desire/ability to attend conferences, particularly abroad, is curtailed by children? And how is this affecting your career? I've not been to a single one since returning from maternity leave last year - some don't looking interesting enough to warrant the hoops I'd have to jump through for childcare arrangements, and the only one I fancy unfortunately clashes with DH's work trip (booked first).