Is anyone else an academic who has not produced enough research while having kids and is now in the s***?

[Kathyis6incheshigh]

There are lots of academics on MN, just wondering if there is anyone else in my position.

Am pg with 3rd dc in 5 years. Have had hyperemesis and other problems in all 3 pgs, which on top of 2 maternity leaves means heaps of time off work. In the meantime I have completely lost research momentum and produced sod all apart from a few book reviews. I was not submitted for RAE (though fortunately my dept did very well without me so none of my colleagues are holding it against me personally.)
Every time I come back it takes me all my time to get back up to speed with teaching and admin, get on top of all the changes in my field etc, and I only ever seem to make baby steps towards producing anything before I am sick or pregnant again.
Just had uncomfortable meeting with (supportive) HoD at which she broke news to me that I am about to get a scary letter from Personnel and a process is going to start which will probably include ritual disembowelling/change to a teaching only contract if I don't get something submitted before baby is due. Which would be fine as long as the foetus behaves and sickness holds off - am only just back at work after 2 months off with HG.

Serves me right for having children, doesn't it?

You can read it online on that link. Just scroll down

Hello, can I join your thread albeit rather belatedly? (have changed name, am not troll I promise)

OK am not really a proper academic yet but want to be, am just finishing PhD at present. Am getting quite worried by this thread - have only 1 DC - rather nervous about trying for any others if this is what careers in academia are like with young children at home.

Oh nooooooooooo

Am I making a terrible mistake?

I don't think so. You need to go with your heart. Life is all about trade offs.

TBH, and being close to lots of academics, and having spent quite a lot of time working in academia, I have thought for a long time that academia is really, really bad career choice for mothers: long, unpredictable hours and low pay!

I shall advise my daughter to go for work that has short, predictable hours and high pay

Porncocktail
I read quite a lot of PhD applications for one part of my job and I would say concise is certainly the way to go. I would be looking for potential - rather than absolute proof that you could do it - which would be expressed by getting the main points across concisely and clearly - what do you want to do? why it is important (including gaps in lit)? how do you plan to do it? Especially if the supervisors have already agreed.
A caveat - my area is health/ social science - and we tend to supervise our students v closely - in different areas this may be different and hence the requirements for the application would also be different.

ThesisWhatThesis (brilliant name, btw!) - as MT says, you've got to do what is in your heart. Yep it's hard, but nothing that is truly fulfilling is easy!

If I was younger I would have another child and f**k the academe

ThesisWhatThesis - regarding Anna's comment, I think you have to go for what is best for you as a person, as well as you as a mother. My POV is that DCs are only tiny for a short time. Then there are hopefully years and years in which having a fulfilling, enjoyable job (which academia can absolutely be!) can be a wonderful thing.

Also, there are advantages, especially the flexibility in hours in many subjects, which can allow you a bit of time with DCs in the mornings and evenings - although you may end up working frantically after they have gone to bed.

I would also add that academics lucky enough to get a permanent position are actually very well paid relative to the rest of the UK population!

Anna, how many jobs are there with short, predictable hours and high pay? That are also interesting and fulfilling?

Thesiswhatthesis, some people manage better than others of course. It's all a bit random depending on your family circumstances and the way your career pans out. I can't believe academia is much worse than the majority of professional jobs. (Personally I'm sure whatever job I was in my career would be struggling after 3 hyperemesis pregnancies.)

I don't think academia is worse than many other professional full time jobs (and better than some). But I disagree that children are tiny for only a short time, my oldest is 9.5, my youngest just 5, I have one of 7 too, so for the last decade my academic output has been severely limited by pregnancy, babies, and small children. That's been my 30s, that key career-climbing decade.

But STILL they are all small, especially the 5yo, and still I don't want to be working most evenings or most of the holidays or commute a long way or be generally stressed and distracted around them. And actually I don't want to be working long hours for a good few years yet. It doesn't FEEL like a short time, it feels like 15 years - by the time the youngest is 10, say, of low productivity and commitment at a time when Real Serious Academics are producing prodigiously.

good pay short hours interesting work = part time GP. That's what dsis and dbil do, they work a couple of days a week each but still earn more in that time than even the highest paid academics. but I think academic work is more interesting.

Oh yes, Fennel, you are so right about GP work. I often think that would have been a brilliant career choice.

I am sure you are right when you say childhood is longer than I think. DD is only 1, so perhaps I am still in the phase of denial!

Do you think that, say 45, is too late to ramp a career up again? I suppose I imagined that I would have a bit of a fallow period now, and then get motoring properly once DD is older. Obviously it's never going to be possible to catch up with the Young Men In A Hurry who are considered to be the real stars in my field (questionable, imo), but still possible to have a late blossoming career?

'Questionable' was supposed to refer to the idea that the Young Men In A Hurry are superstars. They may be in output terms, but I think the value of a lot of their work is debatable.

In my field, which is vocational, quite a few people (not me) come into academia in their 40s and 50s after many years of professional work (God I wish we had the private area already so we could just all say what subjects we do!). Mature people seem able to get research careers up and running in an amazingly short time if they already have a good set of skills. So I am assuming acceleration will be possible once children are less demanding.
I also have the example of my former PhD supervisor whose career took off spectacularly once her children left home. I'm sure Fennel is right that they do stay small for a long time. However, at least then you don't get the long interruptions from maternity leave/pregnancy-related illness which is what's been so disastrous in my case.

...oh and as mothers of course we all have fabulous time-management, toddler-wrangling skills which can also be applied to dealing with recalcitrant students/colleagues/senior managers, and our brains have grown due to our having to learn a lot about parenting. (Wasn't there some research that showed that having children does actually make you more intelligent but the effects are masked in the early years by lack of sleep?)

I think there must a bit of a mental shift too. A woman who is HUGE in my field told me that she didn't feel focused on work again until her DCs were ten. (I don't think anyone would have noticed this, so she was obviously putting on a good show! In fact there may be a lesson for us CAWKers there, along the lines of "Fake it til you make it".)

I do think that, when you find your groove, academia can be more flexible and family-friendly than lots of careers (and I don't think I would've liked to be a GP - looking at people's manky problems! ): but you do have to find that groove.

Also, it is hard to keep perspective: I look at all these fabulous women professors in my department and think, "Gosh, they're amazing: I'll never achieve as much", but then I remember, they are 15, 20, 30 years older than me - of course they've done a lot more than me.

Even our most starry (and she is really fabulously starry - IMO, at least ) prof "only" published her first biggie when she was 37.

I've got 6 years left... [time ticking emoticon]...

I think that, although in comparison to other similarly qualified professions, academia can seem rather poorly rewarded, there are lots of intangible benefits which are harder to quantify financially - one being that, long after retirement age, for instance, you remain part of the academic community (if you want), can keep publishing, attending seminars, and generally remaining active. I like this thought. It's not just a job which you do "for pay" - it can also be a lifestyle choice, IYSWIM?

HighOn, 45 better not be too late - I'll be that by the time dd starts school. I do remember a prof years ago telling me the average age of first-time hires in his dept was 36. Guess I've missed that boat .

I've always thought, though, that this job itself is vocational - considering the amount of education we have to have and the hours, the pay is rubbish. But the satisfaction of teaching and writing? Priceless.

45 won't be too late PhDLife - after all, as Penth said, we will all keep publishing long past retirement age
I was once told by an elderly don that he had produced his best work after retiring

porncocktail - grr on your behalf.

lol porn - so long as I can work "The Trouble With Tractors" into my future work, eh?