Seriously thinking about asking to be demoted, please help ...

[rookiemater]

I have worked at a large organisation for a number of years. I am at a reasonably senior management grade, I manage staff and am responsible for planning in our own area. I believe that I have done a pretty good job, prior to DS (aged almost 3) I was a lot more committed and able to do extra hours, since returning after mat leave I have worked 4 days a week and had better than average performance appraisals.

About 18 months ago DH and I started TTC for no 2. My periods started getting horrendous, nothing happened on the TTC front and cut long story short ended up having a laparoscopy in November which diagnosed severe endometriosis. I am now on heavy duty injection hormones to induce menopause which have made me feel exhausted, depressed and somewhat paranoid. Apparently the alternative is a full hysterectomy, whatever happens its unlikely to be fully better until I reach the menopause, so there is something to look forward to !
The plan is to come off them at some stage for a one off chance to TTC but I'm very scared because the pain has started to come back. I'm 39 so there isn't a huge window of opportunity and it's all freaking me out.

Anyway added to the mix my reporting line changed round about the time this all started happening and I now have a male boss. He has been extremely understanding during the initial phase, but I am struggling to explain my ongoing issues to him, plus he has a view of me as being introverted and lacking in confidence which I believe is primarily down to the drugs I'm on. I don't have the energy to try to perform at the level I think he wants me to and with all that is going on I am struggling to cope with the ongoing trials and tribulations of managing my team.

I think it would help me a lot to reduce to 3 days a week, but also to take some of the stress away to go down a grade so I don't have management responsibilities any more. In the long term I have probably plateaued with my career and whilst it is important for our family that I bring in some income, we can live on a lot less than what I currently earn + Dhs income.

Do you think this seems sensible ? I have no idea how to approach it as I know I will burst into tears if I try to discuss with my manager.

Can you give yourself a bit more time with this before you make a decision? I'm concerned that you're being seen as introverted and lacking in confidence, as you are clearly not. Is there another way you can give yourself a break - maybe the company might be open to a 3 month unpaid sabbatical if you can afford it?

IME, once you're seen as being less able, the tar will stick till you go somewhere else, unless you can tackle it head on. I had an appraisal shortly after returning from mat leave which queried my communication skills - I let it go as I was busy with other things, and for ever after people were telling me I was a poor communicator (even while I was running training for 20 people at a time, chairing senior meetings, producing literature) - because that was on my record and the actual work I was doing wasn't with the idiots managers doing appraisals.

Is there a reason why managing your team presents trials and tribulations, when before you were coping? Has there been a change in the team as well as your management?

And would it be worth just re-reading one of the management manuals to remind yourself of how much you know and how skilled you are? IME line manager's don't have to be particularly intelligent or capable to keep their own management happy () and maybe you're just being too hard on yourself?

Separate out the feelings that the hormones are giving, and see if you can put them in a box marked 'not me just a symptom of a medical condition like a broken leg would be'. I think going down a level at work is more likely to tip you into further feelings of inadequacy, and possibly trigger off some depression. Give yourself some more time out of work - maybe get your 3yo into extra nursery hours, so you can be fresher for the weekend, and get some time alone in your head to get you fresher for work?

And are you trying different painkillers to see which one gives you the most relief with the clearest head? Do keep going back to the doctor - it's their job to help, and if you feel guilty for using up resources remind yourself that you're being a good taxpayer in getting yourself fit for work.

I hope you work this one through. Good luck.

Thank you for your response perardua. I will try to work through the points.

Our business, in common with many, is going through turbulent times. When we moved reporting line, some duties were taken away so although my boss says there is lots of work for everyone, people are concerned about their jobs. There are several challenging personalities anyway and the unsettled circumstances have tipped them over the edge somewhat. Also as I was away for a few weeks due to my op some issues surfaced so had to deal with those when I came back.

I have booked myself on a leadership training course to try to freshen up my skills and have tried to read some books but it just seems like nonsense and not important or relevant to me.

I also feel I have been working quite well since the New Year and have implemented team changes and got involved with wider projects but apparently according to my boss what I need to be able to do is to think in advance what he is thinking and then wow him by doing it. Now that is clearly twaddle and I'm not sure that anyone could do that, but when in conversation with him I spend the entire meeting just trying not to burst into tears all the while thinking I used to be really good and could have done this job standing on my head.

Unfortunately with the medication there isn't a wide range of choice. The doctors don't know a lot about it as they were the ones who just put me on progressively stronger and more useless painkillers until finally I went on Mumsnet and someone said do you know I think you have Endometriosis and you need to be seen by a consultant. I'm due to see the consultant again soon, but from looking at online forums there just isn't a wide range of options and in the long run I'm hoping that the hormone injections will help so I just have to suffer the side effects.

We could afford for me to be off work but I'd be concerned about doing that for a long period of time. If I have routine tasks to do then I quite enjoy the interaction and getting away from home and thinking about myself, its when things get more challenging that I lack the necessary oomph. Also I think this is quite a make or break time and if I was to ask for a sabbatical I'm pretty sure I would be written off, more so than if I try to get my duties reduced.

Sigh its all such a mess I just don't know what to do.

From what you say, it does sound like your main work problem is your manager. Is there someone at his level in the company that you could ask to mentor you, so you could get some positive feedback on what you're doing, and some company-based perspective on his stupidity management style?

As to the endo - if you are going to be trying to conceive, can you take a break from menopause-inducing hormones? It sounds like a one-way ride to me (although only have 2nd hand experience of this). Have you been offered laser surgery to remove the lesions (terminology?)? A colleague of BIL has had this about every 6 months for more than 2 years (don't have full story but was investigated for endo a few years ago myself so can only pass on what registered then) and did manage to conceive in the intervals between getting 'cleaned' and the build-up getting bad again. Another friend with endo is on the pill fulltime, with a break every 6 months for a bleed, and this seems to work for her (although her 'level' may be different from yours). How soon will you be seeing the consultant again?

I guess I'm just concerned that you may be making a decision that you can't come back from, at a time when you're feeling low and may not make the best long-term choices. Sorry if I sound like an interfering busybody...

You don't sound like a busybody at all perardua !

It has taken me a few weeks to even dare voice my plan and I really appreciate feedback on it.

My boss isn't a bad man. He was incredibly understanding during the initial surgery period, far more so than I can imagine my previous female boss being. It is partly my own fault, I have up days and down days and as I had been having a few up days I felt that the HRT had kicked in and I was back to normal, but then I started bleeding again, the pain came back and am now just terrified pretty much most of the time, but am scared to voice this because a) talking about bleeding and endo to a male boss is just completely inconceivable to me and b) I don't want to be seen as some sad long term whinger.

When I had a bit of a breakdown at work he suggested if I had any issues I felt uncomfortable discussing with him I could chat to one of the other women at my level, but I don't want to do this too much as I feel it is unfair on her. We do have HR but they are tied up with making people redundant and probably wouldn't be much interested in my plight.

Unfortunately my endometriosis is severe. I have a lot of faith in the consultant who treated me as he is an expert and he advised that I was one of the worst cases he had ever seen and he was unable to do much except drain a large cyst and tidy up some adhesions as the endo is in my bowel and vagina. I'm due to see him in a couple of weeks and will be asking about going on the pill because I was on it for most of my adult life and managed just fine by taking it non stop, but I know they aren't keen on it for the over 40s.

Sorry just one more point, the menopause injections are meant to be short term as the consultant hopes when I stop them my body will have a surge of female hormones that will help with getting pregnant which I think is pretty much what happened with DS as had been on pill most of my adult life then got pregnant straight away when I came off it. DH and I both assumed it was because we were superfertile, sadly nothing could be further from the truth.

At the moment I am too frightened about the pain reoccuring to stop and am going to suggest to the consultant that I stay on it for a couple more months. I don't feel in the right frame of mind to TTC although thats another worry as I'm soon to be 39 so its not as if time is on my side, plus I'm getting less sure I could cope with 2, as I'm not managing all that well at the minute as DS in challenging phase and have not managed to potty train or get him to eat a wide variety of foods, so am failing on motherhood front as well as work.

You sound like you are depressed and stressed, unsurprisingly, and are finding it hard to focus on work because it seems meaningless and trivial compared with the possibility of not having another child (and coping with the chronic pain etc). And also the hormones. I had fertility problems too and I felt like a complete fruitloop a lot of the time - partly the drugs, but mostly just the distress of the situation. A lot of it focussed on work because it all felt so meaningless. Could you find a good counsellor who might help you deal with the fertility issues?

I think PerAdua's advice is really good. I know the last thing you feel like is summoning the energy and drive to fight for your position, but I agree that you shouldn't let this boss drive you out of a job you KNOW you are capable of. That said, no job is worth more than your quality of life, so there is a balance here...
Can you go down to 3 days and stay at your level of responsibility? I think telling your boss lots of detail about your issues is likely to be counterproductive, try just focussing on a positive sell of what you CAN manage to do (I'll bet even on a bad day you outperform most of your peers...)

Must go and wake up child soon.....

3 days would make a big difference to me. Our CM only works alternate Fridays so its a bit of hassle trying to negotiate parents or alternate arrangements for that day. Ideally if I had Friday off then I would keep to the current arrangement and then that way once a fortnight I would get a day to myself which would be bliss.

I just have no idea how to sell this to my boss. I'm pretty sure I'm not outperforming my peers atm and I have no idea how to do positive spin. Help me to think how to phrase it because maybe that is the answer.

We do have Employee Assistance programme over the phone and I thought maybe counselling would help but I phoned up yesterday and got a bloke so slammed the phone down. I feel unable to have to describe my situation in words, although well able to do it online !

Trying to think about the different points...

You can take the pill past 40 if you take progesterone-only - it's the oestrogen (sp) one which increases risk of stroke etc.

Sounds like you've got a good consultant - well done.

As to TTC - well, once you've had another, you could always go for (last resort but maybe not so shocking given the level of problems you're having) oopherectomy? Get rid of those pesky hormones forever?

Potty training - don't be hard on yourself. 3's not that old in the scheme of things, and the longer you leave it the quicker it will be.

Wide variety of foods for a toddler - do you eat a wide variety yourself? Cos I think that's the main indicator of how adventurous a child will be. If DS is seeing you eat different foods he's more likely to try them himself, or at least not be 'scared' of them. And when he goes to school, get him onto school dinners and he'll probably bow to peer pressure and eat all sorts of things that you can't be bothered with don't eat at home.

As to talking to your male boss about it... How much detail would you be happy to give if it were bowel-cancer you were receiving treatment for? Maybe pitch the information at that level? I do wonder if - by suggesting you talk to a female colleague instead - he's actually reinforcing the idea that 'women's problems' are for women, and not actually straightforward medical problems IYSWIM? From personal experience, the wankiest male managers can be terribly sensitive when female workers are having female problems, but will then always see that female as a female problem, whilst telling themselves that they're fantastic people-persons for providing a few weeks of sympathy. But as I say this is from personal experience and I may not be entirely objective here .

I do think you're being hard on yourself. What does your DH think about it all?

Well, your initial post has some good points about what you are doing well at work.
But I think one of the issues is that you are feeling very emotionally stressed (partly hormones but I think actually its the underlying fertility risk that is probably upsetting you more). I just think the work thing could be a bit of a red herring, and that down grading yourself may not actually solve your emotional distress.

I honestly don't know if my boss is a good guy or an idiot. It is just too hard for me to tell at this point.

I think his communication style is obtuse and atm I really need things to be spelled out for me. I take a notepad along to our meetings now so I can email him with summary action points from our meetings as my memory isn't so good from the hormones. DH suggested I do this to look efficient, but instead I think its making me look uncreative and needing direction. I have relayed many a conversation to DH and he thinks my boss sounds like a bit of an idiot, but then we can all grumble about our managers can't we, and even if he isn't the best, he is the one I have at the minute and its the one thing I can't change.

Dh is supportive in theory, but over the course of the weekend he was out drinking on Friday night and had hangover on Saturday and went out to play cricket all Sunday afternoon then managed to hurt himself at it and whinged about that when I got back with DS rather than being grateful that he had an afternoon off. He is tremendously upbeat about everything and tries to put a positive spin on it all by saying that all my problems would go away if we just got pregnant again. Which. Doesn't. Help. At. All. Sorry have just realised have pent up anger on this subject, arrrghhh.

Sorry elliott cross posted with your last message. Maybe it is counselling I need, you could be right and maybe down grading wouldn't resolve things, I just don't know. I have always been a doer and I just want to be doing something to try to resolve the situation.

I don't think having a notebook and emailing action points makes you look uncreative - it's good management practice. Mr PerArdua is reading over my shoulder (snow day hurrah) and agrees that your boss is probably a bit of a prat... Especially when he offered you a woman at your level to talk to - should be finding you someone at his level, so you actually get practical advice from someone senior to you (rather than nice but impractical sympathy
from someone that might be after your job).

Counselling is a good idea - it is a doing thing, and it might resolve things. Does sound though as if you need to get your DH on the same page - if he's seeing pregnancy as the cure for all ills, then he's either my mother or isn't understanding the whole situation

Thank you Mr perardua, waves.

Part of my problem is I have too much empathy. I can see it entirely from my bosses situation, right now all our jobs are in jeopardy and he has inherited some tearsome tiresome lady with womans problems. Not an ideal catch for anyone.

Dh is generally very good, I mustn't slag him off. He does the best he can, and I am very glad we have managed to get my mum to look after DS so he can come to the consultants appointment because he is much more level headed about remembering what questions to ask. I just find it irritating that he thinks that we will be lucky all the time or that my endometriosis will miraculously go away .

You haven't slagged your DH off! Or if you have, you really weren't trying hard enough .

Try reminding yourself that, from your bosses point of view, you're an excellent and able employee with a lot of experience and knowledge about the company, and that this is all just a temporary blip. Better to cut you some slack now and keep you in the company - especially as the company is going to be losing skilled and experienced people, and will need all the help it can get to weather the next few years.

Good luck with the consultant

Ok let me pick your brains a little bit longer.You have convinced me that I shouldn't be asking to go down a grade at this point. But what should I do ? There is literally no point in speaking to HR and I am just too sure what else to do, I can't seem to get a handle on how to approach my boss about anything and I'm not sure what I want to say to him.

Sorry to jump in here. FWIW I think PerArdua's advice is spot on.

You mentioned Employee Assistance - we have access to this at my work and I've heard several peopel really rate it for various issues. I know you got a bloke the last time but perhaps it would be worth calling again? And if you got a man and were uncomfortable, why not come out and say you have some issues you'd rather discuss with a woman? You can do it with GPs so....

Don't down yourself rookie. You're obviously more than capable to have got to the level you are. Good luck

Yep, I second RipMac - employee assistance should be able to help. Can you also look at a mentor? It sounds like your company is large enough to have a mentoring scheme, and if not it should. Maybe you can start one and get bonus points for proactiveness?

But all you really need to do right now is ride it out. What specifically do you need to approach your boss about right now? Make a list and we can give you some ideas?

Thanks folks, I will phone Employee Assistance once I can muster up the pluck.

I just want my boss to understand that I can be better than I am but am finding it hard at the minute. I want him to stop applying pressure to me and for him to know that I am doing the best that I can.

OK, I don't think you need to tell him that outright - because it will sound as if you're apologising for poor performance, and it does sound like you're actually on top of everything but your relationship with him.

Some ideas:

Try to deal in specifics - e.g. 'I won't be able to cover x on y-day as I'll be at consultants', and book some working at home afternoons if you can, where you can slump on sofa with laptop and concentrate on getting stuff done without the politics.

Make a list of pertinent comments ('so and so did well on x', I had an idea about strategy y') to make to him, and throw them at him randomly to divert his attention from anything you're not comfortable with. Do you have a copy of Toddler Taming yet? Diversionary tactics and attention rewards work as well on managers as toddlers

Maybe book some half-days annual leave to get your head together. If your boss questions this, explain that you want to make sure you're bringing your best self into the office every day, and you're working with the consultant to ensure you get back to 100% health asap.

Let him see you actively manage the problem. If he tries to ask you for more info than you're comfortable with (especially if he's being over-sympathetic) then try a casual remark about 'would you ask me that if it were testicular cancer' - with a pleasant smile on your face of course.

And if you have any specific HR issues, or if you're worried that you may be talked into a position you're uncomfortable with, then try paging FloweryBeanBag who seems to be fab

Thanks for all your help today perardua. Will take some time to digest what you have written.
Thanks

Flowery's on a break at the moment, so if she doesn't contribute to this then don't worry, she isn't ignoring you.

I think PerArduaAdNauseum has raised some really good points and has made some useful suggestions. If it is any consolation, I know exactly where you are coming from. I had lot of fertility treatment with DS and I know that work and the hormones just weren't compatible. What worked for me was to compress my hours (I was full time) over 4 and a half days. I used the half day to get my head together, rest and generally de-stress. I negotiated this by presenting the business case: better work outcomes (I'd been honest like you about my issues) and me being able to manage my issues more effectively. With hindsight, I wish I'd asked for a referral to Occupational Health in the hope that I might have been given "permission" to be a bit kinder to myself and to ease off on the workload a bit. Part of my business case was to outline how my half a day of work would be covered in my absence, although in reality of course I was still full time, just a different pattern.

I work fewer hours these days and feel a lot better for it. I'm still at the same grade though, and I'm very glad that this is the case, as I really believe that I might have taken a pay cut without a reduction in responsibility.

For what its worth, I see nothing wrong in taking a notepad and pen to meetings and emailing actions. I think most people do this, or at least the organised ones do!

Aw, rookie, you sound cheesed off dear.

You know where I am if you want to go out for a drink, or if I can help you with your ds. Just shout.

Thanks mawbroon, I'm sorry to be a bit of a whinger at the minute, I don't think I'm great company on my own although good team with DS.

Am really down, phoned our Employee Assistance Line last night, they recommended getting occupation health involved thought it would be good for both me and my manager. Read through our literature and I don't think we have such a thing as occupational health.

I just feel fragile, had interaction with manager today, he was a bit abrupt and wanted to know the answer to things off the top off my head, but I didn't so had to check then got it wrong and almost ended up in tears in front of him. I have also had a couple of incidents of forgetting that I have done or not done things over the past few days, not all work related, but its the bloody hormones and I feel so helpless.

All I know is I can't continue like this, I'm going to have to speak to him and see if I can reduce hours or duties or both in the short term as I don't think I need to be signed off as feel ok when not in work, but just not able to cope with current stresses.

Any more suggestions or thoughts please let me know.

Just checked in and found this. Can't you get signed off for a bit? If you're not fit for work, reducing hours won't help IMHO. You need to get your head together, and it sounds like your Boss really isn't helping. How long till you see the consultant? Can you get note from doc to cover you till past then? Hope you feel better soon...

Just wanted to update.

I finally emailed my boss and outlined my concerns because I just couldn't see a way round it. We had a meeting today and it went brilliantly. He said my performance was fine and outlined exactly what I was meant to be doing which is what I need at the minute and also suggested that if I am having a down time then its ok to work from home sometimes if that is better for me. Also going forward if I need to take time off on a monthly basis because of pain issues ( didn't mention the period word, thought that might have been a step too far for both of us !) then that was fine provided I made the time up over the course of the month.

I feel like a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders, I don't expect a glowing review, I'm pitching for average at the minute, but with everything else going on I will be happy with that.

Thanks people for your input, particularly perardua, you all helped a lot.