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Original poster

Any solicitors out there to help a trainee in distress?

46 replies

cfc · 21/11/2008 15:09

My firm have just called me into the managing partner's office with the two other partners and said that I don't have a future with them and they will only sign me off as being competent if I pay for my own PSC. Otherwise they won't sign me off at all as they've been in touch with the Law Society and they said that they have a duty to not sign off trainees who aren't competent.

I am stunned.

I knew I wasn't getting on here my face doesn't fit and I've never gelled with the archaic IT and management, and I knew something was brewing - but this?!

What should I do? And I've got to stay here all afternoon when all I want to do is walk out.

Help me please.

ps - I am 17 weeks pregnant and due in May 6th. I qualify on 2nd June (or should) and as long as I don't take more than 4 months off before I qualify I'll go ahead and qualify.

OP posts:
PrincessButtercup · 21/11/2008 15:12

Oh my goodness. You poor thing. I'm an ex corporate lawyer so can't help with the employment side of things but do you have any senior assistants who you have worked closely with/ a mentor there to talk this through?

CountessDracula · 21/11/2008 15:13

I would say either you are competent or you are not - I don't see what you paying for the PSC has to do with it. Are they threatening you then?

It sounds rather odd - poor you

sitdownpleasegeorge · 21/11/2008 15:27

So they are effectively asking you for money in order to sign you off as competent when they don't consider you to be competent. Isn't that illegal ?

As someone said, you are either competent or you're not.

I'm not a solicitor so what is a PSC and how much does it cost ?

Original poster
cfc · 21/11/2008 15:27

yes, that's exactly what a friend (who is a NQ employment sol) said to me.

What they are doing is saying that they don't want to pay the £1500 for the PSC and they don't want to sign me off as competent but they will if I pay for my own PSC.

Blackmail, methinks.

God, I could throw up, I really could.

OP posts:
Original poster
cfc · 21/11/2008 15:29

Sorry - Professional Skills Course and it's about £1500.

It's an uber small firm and I don't have anyone to talk to within it.

OP posts:
Original poster
cfc · 21/11/2008 15:31

FWIW - I do think they consider me competent, but they are so short of money at the moment. They even said no to a marketing budget for another office of £125 for a newspaper advert recently.

OP posts:
Swedes · 21/11/2008 15:36

Think rationally about this.

First and foremost you want to qualify and you need to be signed off as competent. Write the cheque for the PSC fees today. Just pay it. Don't make a fuss. Take up the issue with them after they have signed you off as competent. Until then their backstop will always be that you are not competent and it's within their contractual rights not to pay PSC fees for trainees who don't meet the required standard.

And breathe.

ilovemydog · 21/11/2008 15:37

call the regional office of the law society and have an informal chat with them about it.

Bubble99 · 21/11/2008 15:38

Is it normal for a firm to pay for the PSC or the individual?

Original poster
cfc · 21/11/2008 15:39

Thanks for your reply swedes. I know that if push comes to shove I will pay it as I've worked so hard to get here, to this point. You won't believe this, but I turned down 2 training contracts before I got this one. That's practically unheard of.

I am smarting at the injustice of it all and I know me and I know that afterwards with a baby and a new job I'll probably not bother getting back to them about it.

What could I do about it afterwards? Report them to the SRA?

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LittleWeePickle · 21/11/2008 15:39

Could this be an issue to do with you being pregnant? Are they hoping to ditch you because you'll be on maternity, and they'd rather find a permanent replacement than a stand-in while you're on your leave?

I suspect discrimination. They've said they'll sign your PSC , but only if you pay - therefore you are good enough, and they are willing to sign you off as such.

You are effectively paying £1500 to keep your job aren't you?

I'd go and see a good employment lawyer...

Original poster
cfc · 21/11/2008 15:40

It's in the terms of the training contract that the firm pay, individuals never pay.

I will call SRA and Young Lawyers Division, but I'm in work (God, I wish I was anywhere else right now) and I can't do it from here.

Thanks for your replies, you're very good x

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sitdownpleasegeorge · 21/11/2008 15:44

If you can manage the £1,500 for the PSC and it is the only thing you now need in order to qualify on 2nd June next year, despite your pregnancy/maternity leave complication then I'd pay it.

I think Swedes is right, don't take issue until after they have signed off. Are they likely to be using this as a way to make you leave and will they start to implement another "make cfc want to leave" scheme if you fail to rise to this bait ?

LittleWeePickle · 21/11/2008 15:46

... and yes, I agree with Swedes - pay the £1500 now. They can't say you're not competent after they've signed this, regardless of who has paid for it.

You will have more credibility later on if you don't keep your job, or if there is an ongoing dispute.

Defo see a good employment law specialist tho...

Good luck!

Original poster
cfc · 21/11/2008 16:08

Thanks. I am on a fixed term contract til June and won't be retained, for sure. So I've alrady lost my job, but have qualified for OMP so will be in exactly the same position if I were employed or not, so no diff.

I am thinking that perhaps you guys are right, they can't say to the SRA "actually, she's not competent" after the event. they have a duty after all, as an SRA training provider, don't they?

I could pay for the fees (get proof that I did) then after I've qualified and they've stuck to their side of the bargain (how can I make them do this?) I can approach my employment sol friend and ask her to write a letter (from her firm, I'll pay) stating that I want my money back or else I'll start a dispute via the SRA.

They won't want to go there knowing that their blackmail, in effect, is completely out of order not only morally but legally as well (civilly, I mean) so they'll pay.

If they don't, I go to the SRA and they have it out with them. Chances are I'll get my money back but if I don't at least I'll have caused them some pain.

Once they've signed me off they can't say "actually we didn't mean it, can you take her off the roll, please"...can they? Would they?

OP posts:
Swedes · 21/11/2008 16:58

Deal with the injustice once you are qualified. You can demonstrate your competence.

annh · 21/11/2008 18:39

Cfc, I'm not a solicitor and know nothing about training contracts etc but aren't you the person who posted a while ago about being unhappy with your work and that you yourself felt it wasn't up to standard? Please do find out whether they could, in fact, withdraw their agreement to your competence before deciding to pursue them for the £1,500.

Original poster
cfc · 21/11/2008 19:45

Hi Annh, yes I was worried that they would terminate my training contract because I was pregnant (and this course is coming up) and I knew that with them making redundancies they'd prob want to let me go. The reason I was worried was when it would be, and whether they would do it even quicker because I was pregnant.

I knew that they were trying to push me out and whilst I wasn't initially worried about my competence (I'd done so well at my last firm), hearing them go on and on about it has driven my confidence right down. I didn't have any work to do when I arrived as the arse just dropped out of the market so I didn't perform because I couldn't. My confidence being knocked time and time again probably led to me not performing, but although I should have stopped that, surely they have to take some responsibility for it also.

Despite being told time and time again that I had to up my game, I was the one who pushed for the next appraisal, the training plan, putting time in my principal's diary for chats and training....being met with the coldest of responses.

I really did think that things were going a lot better, but there's been nothing said about it positively. I'm also not the only one to have noticed their attitude towards me.

I wish I didn't have to go back on Monday. I don't know what I'm going to do. I feel sick just thinking about it, it's like hell and come Sunday night I know I'm going to be in bits.

OP posts:
fridayschild · 21/11/2008 22:22

This is a guess - but I think it would be professional misconduct for your training principal to sign you off if s/he truly believes this is not the case?

I would check with the standards and ethics section of the Law Society. Get something in writing from your firm.

If my guess is right then I think that is a stronger card than the employment rights point - as long as you don't need a reference from them in future, of course.

Original poster
cfc · 22/11/2008 14:55

Yes, indeed they have a duty as a training provider to the Solicitor's Regulation Authority (formerly the Law Society) which includes not signing off people who aren't competent. But this seldom happens and it's not remembered the last time it happened (as I read in the Young Lawyer recently!). So the standard is something subjective to the firm, iyswim?

I don't know if they are stupid enough to put something in writing to me (giving me this ultimatum is stupid in itself) but I'll have a go.

I guess my worries about going with this is
a) the money is for my honeymoon (we got married in July and wanted a winter break) and therefore my husband's too
b) what if, having shown themselves to be dishonest somewhat, they don't stick to their end of the bargain
c) afterwards, will it look to the SRA like I've paid for them to say I'm competent?

I know I am competent. When I spoke to a solicitor at my last firm about this she was gob smacked. I'd practically managed to run my own 70 matters in that place with minimal supervision from the brilliant solicitor who trained me originally. That's why that firm tried so hard to get me to stay.

Anyway, I have to remind myself of that instead of thinking "what if they're right" because they're not.

Only this week did I point out to the NQ sol they've just employed 4 things wrong with his will he;d drafted for a client and something missing from it.

I am now back to not knowing what to do.

OP posts:
Swedes · 22/11/2008 15:18

Pay it. As soon as you are signed off as competent raise it with them in a polite "Wasn't the original deal that the firm would pick up the tab for these fees?". I honestly don't think you want the hassle of fighting to prove your competence. It will spoil your pregnancy, if not your future career.

Original poster
cfc · 22/11/2008 16:09

Swedes, that's what I am thinking - also I won't have the fight in me in a few months...

What a mess, eh? x

OP posts:
ilovemydog · 22/11/2008 16:36

This is just so bizzare.

Isn't this the firm who headhunted you and when you told them about your pregnancy, they said, 'congratuations?' Or am I mixed up?

TBH, if it were me, I would pay it, qualify and have the baby.

And then think about it afterwards.

Stress and pregnancy are not a good mix.

But what I don't understand is either you are competent or you are not. I thought the PSC was part of the LPC, so why are they asking you to pay it? Or is this a post training contract competency where you are officially on the roll of solicitors, in which case it's not about competency; it's an administration point?

Swedes · 22/11/2008 16:41

A senior partner once told me to always concentrate on the best outcome rather than always pursuing what was right. It is very good advice. I think it is better for you to concentrate on what is the best outcome for you rather than what is right. Pay it and see whether you feel like taking up the fight once you are qualified and once you have had your baby.

Judy1234 · 22/11/2008 16:47

You must pay it as the cards are too much stacked in their favour and then as Swedes says claim it back. There may even be a contractual obligation on them to pay it and you could recover it as a debt after you have left but only once you are signed off as competent and are fully qualified as a solicitor.

You probably have all kinds of rights but what you need at the moment is to qualify and have the baby and worry about the rights and claims etc later. You'll earn £1500 a day soon (if you go into the right bit of law)