Any solicitors out there to help a trainee in distress?

[cfc]

My firm have just called me into the managing partner's office with the two other partners and said that I don't have a future with them and they will only sign me off as being competent if I pay for my own PSC. Otherwise they won't sign me off at all as they've been in touch with the Law Society and they said that they have a duty to not sign off trainees who aren't competent.

I am stunned.

I knew I wasn't getting on here my face doesn't fit and I've never gelled with the archaic IT and management, and I knew something was brewing - but this?!

What should I do? And I've got to stay here all afternoon when all I want to do is walk out.

Help me please.

ps - I am 17 weeks pregnant and due in May 6th. I qualify on 2nd June (or should) and as long as I don't take more than 4 months off before I qualify I'll go ahead and qualify.

I think all trainees have to complete PSC (three compulsory elements - Financial and Business Skills course and exam, Advocacy and Communication Skills course
and Client Care and Professional Standards course - and I think some electives as well) during their training contract.

Yes this is the firm who headhunted me. I turned them down twice to remain at my last firm and they called me into their office to meet all the partners and some other lovely staff too. They made a real effort.

My training principal did congratulate me on my pregnancy, but really, what else was she supposed to say?! She is very mumsy and really loved being pregnant and always talks about her kids so I think that the chances are that she (personally) meant it - but not in terms of what it means for the firm.

You complete the PSC usually when you do your training contract. Not during the LPC, that's the vocational part of the training. You have to complete the training contract, be signed off (!!) and complete the PSC successfully before you can be admitted onto the Roll (of Sols of England and Wales).

The firm is ALWAYS obliged, contractually, to pay for the PSC (the FIRST sitting, second sitting and subsequent sittings discretionary). The individual never pays.

The firm has a duty to train their trainees to a standard where they are competent. I've not received any training. I've pushed for it, put dates and times in their diaries to go over things I don't know but it's never really happened. Then the firm pay for the PSC (and sort out the PSC, they shouldn't leave it to the trainee to do this, it's an administrative thing which they are bound to do!) and then they sign you off.

What is happening is my firm is in financial dire straights and knowing that I don't want to stay and am pregnant and will want to go part time when I return and will more than likely want to move closer to home...they don't want to pay £1500 for this course because it's for nothing (as it were).

They are saying that I won't be signed off unless I pay for this course myself, which is unprecedented.

Imagine if all firms did that? Took you on, cheap labour for a while! Took you right to qualification and said "actually, unless you yourself pay for the PSC we won't sign you off".

People would pay because they need to qualify, it's so WRONG.

I hate them!

I do agree with Swedes and Xenia - pay the £1500, get the qualification, then think about what to do.

There is no sense on dwelling on it all too much at the moment. So don't brood about the lack of training etc. A few years down the line it could all be so irrelevant. I know someone who is an incredibly successfully sports lawyer who failed Law Society Finals the first time around.

Frankly a lot of firms seem to be in dire straits at the moment so who knows what's going on? It may not be any reflection on you at all.

Yes, it's very unfair and wrong, legally and morally but they have the power to refuse to sign you off adn then for the next 30 years or however long you'd work you're affected. Instead pay the £1,500, get signed off, leave, move to a better firm. If I can get a job when 5 months pregnant and with 2 children under 4 I'm sure you can.... and then laugh at them when you out earn them all and consider a claim against them to recover the £1,500.

Ugh - agree with Xenia. It's wrong, but Swede's advice second hand is absolutely right; what is the outcome you want.

And you know what? There's more than one way to skin a cat...

A solicitor's business is based on good will, and not that spreading lies is advisable, as you know, word gets around very quickly.

Chalk it up as experience, smile a lot when you go back into the office, keep your dignity and when you've qualified, had the baby, report them.

What a nightmare situation for you - my training contract was bad - i worked for a firm that provided no training - they would ask me to go to Court hearings at the last minute - i once went as trainee to the High Court - it was a bloody frightening thing to do!

I hated them and knew that if the Law Society came to investigate as they threatened to do then i may not have been signed off - but you go along with them because you dont want to not qualify.

Its a tough call - i would suggest you call the Law Society - you dont have to say who you are and ask for their advice - or call an employment solicitor. They can help if a training contract has completely broken down - they will help to find somewhere else as well i think.

I think they would have hard job of proving you incompetent if you have previous glowing reports from other firms and they have treated you like this. It sounds definately linked to your pregnancy.

Rach

You're right they won't put it in writing but what's to stop you??? BHow about an e-ail to those in th emeeting to say following our conversation regarding you iwshing me to pay my own fees whilst etc etc. then you have proof

Yes, that's exactly what I planned to do.

I've been thinking about this over the weekend and discussing it with my husband and I don't think I can make a decision until I've spoken to the SRA's training contract team.

I might offer to pay half and if they don't accept that then I'll go to the SRA and tell them about their blackmail.

I know it's a case of weighing up what's right and what's right for me, so in that case either I pay half and go ahead and qualify or I report them and they get in trouble. I just really don't want them to get away with it, but I don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face.

It's such a lot of money to us. We're newly married and preparing for our first baby - what a terrible time this has been instead of the lovely exciting time it ought to have been.

Sigh.

Good luck cfc. It is a horrible situation for you, and I hope it works out in the end. Lots of good advice here, and morally you're in the right. See what the SRA say, and if you don't speak to a helpful individual, try and speak to a manager or someone else. Ask if you can have the advice in writing.

I am only 2 yers pqe, and at times £1500 would have been an awful lot. Don't get me wrong it still is, but in the grand scheme of things, keep it in perspective.

Not a solicitor, but read your earlier thread so thought this might be you again. I think speaking to any relevant group within the SRA sounds like a good idea. Whatever the best way out of it is, it sounds like a really sneaky dirty form of sex discrimination against you for being pregnant to me.

Well, spoke to someone at the SRA who was quite frankly horrid and useless.

I think I'm going to offer to pay the first £1500 and then if they don't accept that I'll report them to the SRA.

Urgh. I am so deflated.

sorry to hear that they were unhelpful - in what way were they horrid/useless?

Sorry, first £500.

Also, I called back in an attempt to speak with someone else and got the same person!! What luck!!

I do feel for you (esp at this stage in pregnancy so hormonal) but agree with xenia etc who say pay up and deal with it later- I do agree seems like a lot now (not a solicitor but an accountant and remember coughing up to join my institute was akiller) but its qualification that matters- argue rest of it later

She just kept on saying that there was nothing they could do unless I wrote to them and gave them permission to contact the firm to ask them why they won't pay.

I said, "I thought I could come here for anonymous advice" and she said well, yes, but you know, I can't really give you advice as all I'm hearing is your side. I said that this is the only side as it's what happened and the firm will say that they don't want to pay because they think I'm not competent but will leave out the part where they say oh yes, she is competent and sign the form because I've paid the £1500.

Then I asked "what makes a trainee not competent" and she said "oh, well I haven't worked in this area of the law for many years but I could imagine it'd be something like non-performance, disciplinary". I asked if there was anyone else who knew about this specific question in depth, but they weren't available. I've left my number but I can't answer mobile in work when they call back tomorrow.

She just was really obstructive and rude. I had a list of questions to ask and simply couldn't get them out. She just kept on saying "like I said" or "as I told you previously" like I wouldn't remember....

I had to sneak out to make that call, there's no way I can do it tomorrow and they only work 9 - 5 and I work 9 - 5.30.

I'll try again at lunchtime tomorrow and if I can't get them I'll go in with my plan.

I really wanted to do it today you see as the managing partner is the only one in and without his rottweilers he'd be a lot more pliable.

But still, how do I get it in writing? Quesiton for later....!

Update for you who are intersted!!

Well I went in and said that I'd had a think with my husband about what they said on Friday - I said that in the first instance I didn't have that much money. I said that I too had spoken with the SRA and also an employment solicitor from the last firm I worked at and they had strongly advised me not to pay and instead to raise a greivance and report the matter to the SRA for investigation.

I said that I understood the position of the firm and that I was willing to offer £500 towards the cost of the course because I can't be doing with the stress at this time and my husband was agreeable to this. I said I didn't want to raise a grievance and he agreed and said that yes, these things can get bloody.

He said that he was aware when he said it that it sounded like blackmail and it wasn't meant to, it was meant to be a good compromise between the two of us. I said that having spoken to the SRA there are things the trainee can do in order to proceed to an adjudicator signing you off if the firm didn't and this was common, apparently, and the adjudicator does in most cases sign off a trainee where it's been contested. I said that whilst I didn't want to fight this fight and considering I'd have a babe in arms whilst doing so, I would be prepared to do so as I've kept a pretty awesome records of my training from the start (and to think I complained about this at the time!!) and the only other evidence to the contrary is their one appraisal.

He understood what I was saying and asked when the course was. I said soon and I have to get booked on it very shortly. He said "ok, I'm sure we can come to some arragement" and he had to speak with the other partner tomorrow. The other partner in this lovely trio is on holiday. Thank God.

He said he was sorry it had come to this and I agreed. He didn't want me to leave under a cloud and I said I didn't also but a new start with a new team (i.e. litigation, employment or family) in Jan might do the trick.

We then spoke about dogs for a while, how much one of the other partners works and cars and babies.

Before I left the office I said "ok I'll leave it with you but please do bear in mind that I have to get on this course soon as it's the only one I can possibly do without heading to Chester!" and he said he would.

He should speak with the other partner who's in this week either today or tomorrow, I am guessing. In the meantime, I will get my place on the course confirmed and move my 20 week scan date (as it falls on the same day as the exam).

If I haven't heard from them by 12 o clock tomorrow I'll ask for an update.

I know that this leaves me a little open re: their threat not to sign me off, but I believe when the time comes, they simply will. If they don't, as I said above, I believe an adjudicator will sign me off. I hope it doesn't come to that.

I am interested as to whether they'll come to me for the £500 - but we'll see.

Dealing with him on his own is a lot easier than the three together with the other women there.

Any thoughts/suggestions on what to do now? And thank you for your invaluable support and advice x

cfc you sound really in control now!. Just remember what outcome you want, it doesn't matter how you get there(Machiavellian, I know). I'm saying this cos I'm going through a pretty hasslesome time at work also. Morally and legally, I am right but if I knew what stress and the fallout from my perfectly legitimate requests there would be, I might have thought again.
Not trying to put you off in any way, btw, just keep thinking of yourself, what's best/easiest/less stressful etc.
Best of luck

Brilliant! What absolute bullies!

I seem to recall that a high percentage of employment cases at Tribunal, the defendant is from a solicitor's firm. I've always wondered why...

Your strategy in calling their bluff seems to have paid off - obviously you'll be passing the negotiation module

Well I emailed the managing partner yesterday and said that I needed to know where we were as I needed to book this course asap and if I was able to go on this course I also needed to change my scan date for my 20 week appointment as it fell on the same day as the exam! So he said in reply that he'd spoken to the other partner and decided to go with what I'd said (which was me pay £500 towards the cost of the course) and to go ahead and book it, they would pay all of it from the outset and they'd reclaim the VAT.

I said then there's not going to be a problem with me getting signed off in June and he said "no, as long as you don't do anything daft in your next seat!". So there we go.

The tone of his email intimated that I was going to pay half of the cost of the course - but I won't do that. I'll give them the £500 I agreed with the managing partner and if they then cause a stink re the remaining balance (prob about £250) I'll stop the cheque and just go straight to the SRA and raise a grievance. I'll have had enough at that point.

Speaking with the SRA I am confident that an adjudicator would find me fit to practice. Having thought about the things the partner I work for has pulled me on it's always to do with typing. In this firm if you're a woman it's considered that you know how to type and aren't offered secretarial assistance in the first instance. We don't have a case management system and all letters are done from Word. The problems they've had with me have been in terms of administrative errors - such as typos, spelling people's addresses wrong when I can't read their spidery hand writing (Shaye instead of Shave, one example) and things like Dear Both of You, when it should be Dear Both of you....I mean, I'm not training to be a secretary!! They know these things, I wouldn't. Also, our Newly Qualified sol, who is a lovely guy, has a secretary and she sits by me. The amount of times I've heard her say (whilst listening to his dictation) no, that's not right, and going back to him, effectively saving his ass, is unbelievable. So I don't have the luxury of a second pair of eyes looking over my work before it heads to the senior partner to look over.

So in a nutshell, I think it'll be ok. I'm booked on the only PSC core and electives I can do before I head off for maternity and with regards to the money, they'll get what they're given and I am sure they'll not fight for £250 if it keeps the SRA off their back.

I can't wait to move!!

Thanks for all your support. You helped me to understand that I am in a better position than them and gave me the confidence to go ahead and fight this.

C x

well done cfc. Delighted for you!

Yeah!

What's your next seat?