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Don't suppose there are any Solicitors on here or anybody particularly knowledgeable on UK employment law?

42 replies

YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 00:08

I recently - October 31st - attended a disciplinary hearing for alleged misconduct - persistent absence.

My employers were referring to 3 instances of pregnancy related absence - one for morning sickness (I suffered week 7 to 18 in full view of my team and managers, but perservered EVERY day bar one very very bad day). One for a day off on the advice of an NHS direct nurse after I had fallen down the stairs twice in one day - witnessed by my deputy team leader and one for a migraine which I cannot prove was caused by pregnancy, but was adversely affected by my pregnancy as I could not medicate myself with my perscription medication and over the counter paracetamol did not do the trick.

I explained my 3 absences to my employer and then backed up my claim that my pregnancy related illnesses did not enable them to give me a disciplinary as per the guidance in an officla BERR leaflet which clearly states, and I quote, 'If you have disciplinary procedures which apply to standard illness, you must not apply these to pregnancy related illness'.

I also provided evidence from the DirectGov website which states that applying normal disciplinary procedures set in place for standard illness against pregnancy related illness constitutes sexual discrimination.

I had a range of ECJ cases which backed up my claim as well as guidance from the equality and human rights website which give guidance on what is and isnt pregnancy related illness.

My employer casually told me that all of the evidence I provided bore no relevance to my instances of absence and as I was not medically trained nor legally trained I was not in a position to argue these points and that their policy was that they made no distinction between illness regardless of cause and gender and therefore my claim of discimination was a moot point as they made none whatsoever.

I tried to counteract this and say although they viewed their policy as non discrimnatory, it actually amounted to positive discrimination, but I was told that this was purely my opinion and again bore no relevance.

I recieved a letter on November first advising that I had been given the verbal disciplinary and I had 5 working days with which to state my intent to appeal.

On Monday 3rd of November I handed in my letter which only said that I wished to appeal the decision and today, 7th of November I received a letter stating that I had no grounds to make an appeal as I had no new evidence to provide and that in my letter I had not sited any grounds which suggested they had not dealt with my hearing in accordance with best practice and their standard procedures.

I was not even informed I had to state my case in the letter? I thought I had to request an appeal and there would be another hearing? Anyway, the letter stated that this wsa their final decision and the verbal warning would be upheld and that was the end of the matter.

I am now going to raise a grievance against my employers as the guy that held the original disciplinary hearing made notes on a scrap piece of paper, which I wasn't even given the opportunity to read through (though it was barely ledgable) nor did I have to sign and agree with what was written. He did not read through ANY of the paperwork I had provided and he constantly talked over the top of me and kept quoting company policy.

I was told that my right to appeal had been exercised, however I feel very differently..

Does anybody know if I have a good case for discrimination? Upon a brief chat with CAB, they seem tot hink I do but I have to make an appointment with my local tribunal centre and seek proper advice in person - however, this will drive me crazy over the weekend as I cant even seek a professional legal opinion with a solicitor (though I have emaileda number of practices which provide a free, initial consultation via email)..

HELP!!! Can they do this? The #unnecessary stress and strain is really getting to me and I absolutely begrudge having to go into work.

What if I go into preterm labour and I;m put on bed rest? If they make no distinction, surely I'll get a second disciplinary which will then be a written warning?

I already know that I cant be sacked for pregnancy related illness so doesnt that make the whole disciplinary procedure moot? Yet they say they make no distinction.. I;m soo confused and feel like I;ve been shit on from a very great height.

I wasnt even given my health and saftey assessment until pestering them for it - though I was never told I had to formally tell them of my pregnancy in writing before they were obligated to do this - and so I did not know I had free use of the first aid room as a rest facility which would have done wonders when I was suffering real bad with morning sickness but had to go into work at 8am and puke and then get straight back to my desk and work through it - maybe that could have been the difference between avoiding the absence that was m/s related had I of been bale to lie dowa dn rest through it then go back to work when it had passed..

tears out hair

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YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 00:13

also, apologies for bad spelling and grammar - if any (there's lots) but it;s past midnight and this baby is devouring my braincells at an alarming rate. Ha :] And a massive thank you to anybody that takes the time to read through it and attempt to decipher it!!

I realise I can only accept whatever anybody says as advice and guidance and that nothing will be offical... it's purely to tide me over until the beginning of the working week and I can get offical advice and opinion.

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SmileyMylee · 08/11/2008 00:17

YIMSB - I'm sure some solicitors will be along soon. What they have done sounds wrong to me. I have done disciplinary interviews before, but would not have been allowed to do this (or wanted to) in the case of a pregnancy related illness.

Just wanted to offer my support - you don't need this extra hassle at the moment.

I needed loads of time off with DS3. A good employer would never treat a member of staff like this.

solo · 08/11/2008 00:18

They can't do that! You should sue their arses off! Get your advice and follow it through. They have no right and are causing you unnecessary anguish. I'm no expert by the way, but I work for the Government and found all this stuff out first hand when my msickness was really bad.

Good luck.

Cadix · 08/11/2008 00:21

Sorry, I cannot help you on this but it does sound a little unreasonable on your employers part. For what it's worth I think you are on safe ground but I would be inclined just to have an initial appointment with a solicitor to find out exactly where you stand.

It will put your mind at rest and you really don't need this kind of stress when pregnant.

Take care

Quattrocento · 08/11/2008 00:24

You need Flowery Beanbag - far more use to you than a solicitor in this situation (employment law not my field - happy to talk about tax though)

YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 00:34

Yep - I intended to take this as far as needs be..

I did end up with a further disciplinary for insubordination which is being held on November 12th after I told my manager that I thought the HR department were clearly an overpaid bunch of arseholes who clearly had used google (after they tried to palm me off with some ECJ case which relates toa pay dispute during pregnancy related sickness as their guidance for making no distinction - North wester health board Vs McKenna for those that are interested) to try and scaremonger me into accepting disciplinary action instead of following employment law and legislation and providing me with my basic rights..

Eeeek!! I;m not disputing that one though ;]

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YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 01:02

Also, extra information - I verbally told my manager I was pregnant at 5-6 weeks and didnt get my H&S assessment til I was 18 weeks and also, when I told my managers of my fall (I am agency so my TL and DTL work for the company I am seconded to but my manager who deals with everything else is an onsite rep) not one of them was aware that oth falls needed to be recorded int he building accident book.

Had I of miscarried.. heads WOULD have rolled..

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YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 01:05

Oh and yet another thing - the guy that gave me my assessment worked directly for the company I am seconded to so the info he provided (afforded time off for illness related to pregnancy) only relates to the people that work directly for the company - therefore, I was misinformed and arent my actual agency responsible to get someone in who deals with THEIR policies and procedures?

Also, my dad mentioned that seconded employees and agency employees are automatically entitled to same working rights and conditions as the company they are seconded to - thus, I WOULD be entitled to the afforementioned leave the H&S guy advised?

I dunno, it's all such a big mess. I hope they rule against me during the grievance so I can take them to a tribunal so they are formally reprimanded for any wrong-doing - if that is indeed what they;re doing.

I'm so stressed and I can't stop thinking about it!

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YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 01:08

I am purposefully going into these meeting without representation, as they seem to think they can just scaremonger me and talk over me and make decisions without following the proper channels. I am in fact, playing dumb so they get whats coming to them.

Gosh, I'm so bitter and twisted. Can't wait for maternity leave! ;]

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VictorianSqualor · 08/11/2008 01:10

The best person employment wise that I know of is flowerybeanbag, try grabbing her if you see her.

YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 01:17

Yeah - I've already been pointed in her direction - hopefully she'll come across this...

Thanks very much :] It's a shame she's not nocturnal and appears to have gone to bed at a godly hour - or maybe she's out partying hard and making some shapes eh? :]

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VictorianSqualor · 08/11/2008 01:18

If I see her I'll send her this way. Do you have CAT? I can CAT her if you like?

YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 01:20

A CAT? Sorry, I only joined this site last night so I've not had a chance to memorise the acronyms ;]

It's on my to-do list though :D

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VictorianSqualor · 08/11/2008 01:28

It is when you can email a poster through the site, see the envelope near the name? If you click that it's CAT (contact another talker or summit)costs a fiver to be able to CAT someone for a while. Make sure you have CAT turned on so people can CAT you (that's free)
I'll CAT her and link this thread.

YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 01:31

Oh, ok, thats helpful - thanks.. I'll switch it on now - though I can't subscribe myself as my bank account is currently frozen and my bank account empty due to fraudulent transactions which took place in the US to the tune of over 1.3k..

I'm really not having any good luck at the moment - perhaps karma will give me a nice easy labour and birth as recompense!

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VictorianSqualor · 08/11/2008 01:31

I've CAT'd FBB.

BoccaDellaVerita · 08/11/2008 19:07

I'm not a solicitor but I used to be an HR person in the public sector (where things are a little different, I know). Here's my two penn'orth until flowerybeanbag comes along ...

Are you an agency worker supplied through an agency or a secondee from another company? (I'm confused about that). If you are there through an agency, what has the agency said about your benefits and entitlements?

Leaving aside for the moment the question of whether your sick absence should be classed as pregnancy-related, it seems quite harsh that three absences of (if I've understood you) a day each have been called 'persistent'. Be sure to take your contract with you when you go to get legal advice.

You must do what you think best, but I would urge you to reconsider whether it is really helping you to go into these meetings alone. There can be a lot of value in taking a friend or union rep (depending on what your employer allows). The situation is clearly becoming more tense and more complicated. I can understand that you are upset and angry, but your forthright remarks have now led to a second disciplinary hearing and relying on a tribunal to sort it all out in your favour is a risky strategy. Having an adviser with you may calm the situation a little; it may not help you at the tribunal if the company has evidence that you are hotheaded or unreasonable (which is how they may try to portray you).

Hope this helps.

flowerybeanbag · 08/11/2008 22:31

You are absolutely correct, pg-related absence can?t be counted for disciplinary purposes. Pg-related means a condition caused or exacerbated by pregnancy. Disciplining you for pg-related sickness absence is discrimination plain and simple. So you do have a case. Although some of the absence might be debatable as to how pg-related it is, some isn't.

You have the right to appeal the outcome of a disciplinary hearing. You do not have to have new evidence and an appeal does not have to be about procedure, although it sounds as though you have a number of reasonable complaints about the procedure used. An appeal can simply be about the fact that you disagree with the decision. Your statutory right to appeal has been denied you if they are refusing to have an appeal hearing and listen to your complaint.

DO NOT go into any more meetings on your own. Waiving your statutory right to be accompanied isn?t going to help you in any way. It won?t make them look worse, because it's your decision and is only likely to hinder you in making a rational and reasoned argument.

Agency workers are not necessarily entitled to the same benefits as permanent employees, no, so you wouldn?t necessarily get the same sick pay entitlements as a permanent member of staff.

Not sure what you mean about agency being obliged to get someone who deals with their policies ? wasn?t this the person who did your H&S assessment? In which case what difference does it make? Sorry not understanding that point.

In terms of what you need to do

You need to put in a fairly lengthy grievance. You need to make the points about discrimination. You need to make the points about the inappropriate and unreasonable procedure used for the disciplinary, and the fact that you have been denied your statutory right to appeal a decision made. You must also include the fact that it was too long before you received your H&S assessment. The grievance needs to be fairly hefty because you are making several serious complaints, but must be concise, clear, very easy to read and understand.

Don't allow your feelings of resentment and anger to cloud your actions or judgement, this is the factor that's most likely to hinder you in getting a satisfactory outcome. You need to remain professional, calm, and need to be seen to be ultra-reasonable, thus highlighting their unreasonable behaviour. From what you've said, it is sounding as though it could too easily become one of those mud-slinging cases which are messy and irritating to anyone wading through it, and mud being chucked from all sides detracts and distracts from the basic facts. Don't give them any (more) ammunition.

It may be just the way you are coming across, but you almost sound as though you want to go to a tribunal, and want them to behave even more badly so you can 'get back' at them by doing so. Apologies if that's not the case but that is coming across to a certain extent. You really don't want to go through that if you don't have to. In my opinion the aim of your grievance should be to clearly and almost coldly, point out the legal holes in their actions so far, to ideally make them reverse their decision and behave better towards you and others, and as a last resort, to provide the basis for a legal complaint should it come to that.

llareggub · 08/11/2008 22:41

I was just about to wade in and offer some advice but Flowery, has, as always, excelled herself.

Good luck, and try not to get too stressed about it all, as hard as it is. You don't need a solicitor in order to pursue a grievance, and I'm sure you can get the support you need here to cope emotionally and practically.

How many weeks pregnant are you?

YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 22:43

It's not that I want to go to a tribunal for my benefit per se - but I know if it stays within the agency, they will not change their 'policy' in relation to other already pregnant employees and employees that become pregnant in the future..

Without going to a tribunal, is there any way at all that I could ensure that other women don't have to suffer this?

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ilovemydogandPresidentObama · 08/11/2008 22:45

You need to exhaust all internal remedies before going to tribunal anyway, so put in appeal, but be very aware of deadlines for filing at tribunal.

YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 22:45

I'm 21 weeks pregnant..

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YoureInMySystemBaby · 08/11/2008 22:47

Well I am going to a tribunal unit based on advice I receiebed from CAB - but they did say first port of call was to raise a grievance, so I was already fully preparing myself for that before anything further.

I would however still like to seek an officla legal position on the matter to present them - a letter if thats at all possible..

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llareggub · 08/11/2008 22:49

Yes, by pursuing the grievance route. There's plenty of information on the web that can help. In my organisation our absence policy is modelled on the ACAS code and it explicitly states that pregnancy related absence is disregarded for disciplinary purposes.

If you present your grievance and "win" then they may well change their policy. It could be that you're the first pregnant employee to be affected by this. Is the manager who conducted the disciplinary very senior? Is your agency large or small?

Out of interest, are you an agency worker working within a large host organisation? Is there someone working there that you trust who can give you advice?

Ultimately, if you lose your grievance and are still unhappy you can go to tribunal. But that won't necessarily mean that they'll change their policy, but you will have entered into a stressful "fight" with your agency which won't be pleasant.

llareggub · 08/11/2008 22:51

If you definitely want legal advice then check your household insurance. You may well be covered.

They'll tell you to pursue the internal grievance route first, and so will the tribunal unit.

Good luck. Don't forget you can start your maternity leave at 29 weeks.

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