Don't suppose there are any Solicitors on here or anybody particularly knowledgeable on UK employment law?

[YoureInMySystemBaby]

I recently - October 31st - attended a disciplinary hearing for alleged misconduct - persistent absence.

My employers were referring to 3 instances of pregnancy related absence - one for morning sickness (I suffered week 7 to 18 in full view of my team and managers, but perservered EVERY day bar one very very bad day). One for a day off on the advice of an NHS direct nurse after I had fallen down the stairs twice in one day - witnessed by my deputy team leader and one for a migraine which I cannot prove was caused by pregnancy, but was adversely affected by my pregnancy as I could not medicate myself with my perscription medication and over the counter paracetamol did not do the trick.

I explained my 3 absences to my employer and then backed up my claim that my pregnancy related illnesses did not enable them to give me a disciplinary as per the guidance in an officla BERR leaflet which clearly states, and I quote, 'If you have disciplinary procedures which apply to standard illness, you must not apply these to pregnancy related illness'.

I also provided evidence from the DirectGov website which states that applying normal disciplinary procedures set in place for standard illness against pregnancy related illness constitutes sexual discrimination.

I had a range of ECJ cases which backed up my claim as well as guidance from the equality and human rights website which give guidance on what is and isnt pregnancy related illness.

My employer casually told me that all of the evidence I provided bore no relevance to my instances of absence and as I was not medically trained nor legally trained I was not in a position to argue these points and that their policy was that they made no distinction between illness regardless of cause and gender and therefore my claim of discimination was a moot point as they made none whatsoever.

I tried to counteract this and say although they viewed their policy as non discrimnatory, it actually amounted to positive discrimination, but I was told that this was purely my opinion and again bore no relevance.

I recieved a letter on November first advising that I had been given the verbal disciplinary and I had 5 working days with which to state my intent to appeal.

On Monday 3rd of November I handed in my letter which only said that I wished to appeal the decision and today, 7th of November I received a letter stating that I had no grounds to make an appeal as I had no new evidence to provide and that in my letter I had not sited any grounds which suggested they had not dealt with my hearing in accordance with best practice and their standard procedures.

I was not even informed I had to state my case in the letter? I thought I had to request an appeal and there would be another hearing? Anyway, the letter stated that this wsa their final decision and the verbal warning would be upheld and that was the end of the matter.

I am now going to raise a grievance against my employers as the guy that held the original disciplinary hearing made notes on a scrap piece of paper, which I wasn't even given the opportunity to read through (though it was barely ledgable) nor did I have to sign and agree with what was written. He did not read through ANY of the paperwork I had provided and he constantly talked over the top of me and kept quoting company policy.

I was told that my right to appeal had been exercised, however I feel very differently..

Does anybody know if I have a good case for discrimination? Upon a brief chat with CAB, they seem tot hink I do but I have to make an appointment with my local tribunal centre and seek proper advice in person - however, this will drive me crazy over the weekend as I cant even seek a professional legal opinion with a solicitor (though I have emaileda number of practices which provide a free, initial consultation via email)..

HELP!!! Can they do this? The #unnecessary stress and strain is really getting to me and I absolutely begrudge having to go into work.

What if I go into preterm labour and I;m put on bed rest? If they make no distinction, surely I'll get a second disciplinary which will then be a written warning?

I already know that I cant be sacked for pregnancy related illness so doesnt that make the whole disciplinary procedure moot? Yet they say they make no distinction.. I;m soo confused and feel like I;ve been shit on from a very great height.

I wasnt even given my health and saftey assessment until pestering them for it - though I was never told I had to formally tell them of my pregnancy in writing before they were obligated to do this - and so I did not know I had free use of the first aid room as a rest facility which would have done wonders when I was suffering real bad with morning sickness but had to go into work at 8am and puke and then get straight back to my desk and work through it - maybe that could have been the difference between avoiding the absence that was m/s related had I of been bale to lie dowa dn rest through it then go back to work when it had passed..

tears out hair

I work for a global recruitment agency and I am a seconded employee to a large global coporate monster!

I've been told that I cannot have anyone that works directly for the company I;m seconded to, to come into any of the hearings etc with me and all of my managers have been told they are not allowed to contact the company HR to help me out and provide me with advice, nor are they allowed to enter into any discussions with me about the case at all.

The agency I work for does not allow a union to work with it so obviously I have never joined a TU - which I will if needs be as my agency colleagues I have worked with for less than 6 months and all of my previous colleagues that I have worked with for 2 years have all been offered contracts to work directly for the company - one of them being my partner and father of my child - though I realise that would be a conflict of interest, it WOULD be nice to have him in there for moral support - even if he remained silent..

Not a lawyer but was involved with union matters for a few years, so a bit of barrack room lawyer in some ways.

This sounds like sexual discrimination to me, and bad employment practice to boot. I would challenge them absolutely head on by getting some decent legal advice, some representation for meetings, and starting tribunal proceedings, like some of the others have suggested.

I am sure you would win, and feel very empowered when you have done so. This sounds so much like some sort of constructive dismissal. What on earth are they thinking of??

Another thought, might be good to do a subject access request under the Data Protection Act to get a copy of your HR file. Costs £10 but you will have lots of ammo for your battle then.

Best of British, and vive la sisterhood!

also, what I meant with regards to the H&S assessment - he asked me how many, if any, days I had taken off so far due to my pregnancy and I told him and he told me employees are afforded time off for pg-related illnesses - he was dumbfounded when I told him I was being disciplined.

The H&S assessor works directly for the company and was carrying out the assessment on behalf of the agency - surely he should either ve versed in what each employer affords employees OR the agency should have gotten someone in to to my risk assessment that was aware of their policies.

OR I was questioning whether I was entitled to same working conditions as my company colleagues, even though I am agency.

I was not disputing the pay scheme (or lack thereof) so even though my company colleagues get time paid off sick and I dont get paid for sick leave - this is not an issue.

My issue is that I was misinformed by a company H&S assessor as he wasnt aware of agency policy..

Does that make more sense? It was very late lastnight/early hours of this morning when I wrote all of that and my brain isn't working properly at the best of times at the mo.. ha

Personally, I'd stick to the dispute you have with the agency regarding them disciplining you for having time off sick for pregnancy related illness.

They can't forbid you from joining a union, in fact, you have a statutory right to be accompanied by a trade union rep at disciplinary meetings. They just don't have to recognise them for collective bargaining purposes.

Try calling GMB and explaining your predicament. They usually won't represent people until they've been members for 13 weeks but they can (sometimes) make exceptions, particularly where the union is not well-established in a workplace. It's all good PR for them. Seriously, give them a call. IMO they'll be a better bet than an employment lawyer; no offence to any who might be reading this!

I wouldn't have thought it's the role of a H&S assessor to advise on sick pay policy, so I don't think it would matter whether he knows about policy of either the organisation that employs him or the agency that employs you. He was in the wrong advising you but you haven't lost anything from his advice anyway so there's no issue there as far as I can see - there are much more significant and serious things you are complaining about so focus on them.

I agree with llareggub about giving a union a try for representation, you at least need to have someone and a union rep is better than anyone else.

I disagree that they'll be a better bet than an employment lawyer though. They will be a good bet in that they can come into hearings and meetings with you, which a lawyer cannot, and should be experienced at handling these meetings, making sure everything is covered, and protecting you.

But in terms of legal advice about steps you should take, wording your grievance, talking through probability of success, that kind of thing, a union rep isn't a good bet at all. Their knowledge of employment law might be reasonable but I wouldn't rely on their legal advice when it comes to anything other than process during a disciplinary hearing or similar. Indeed, I've come across union reps on here advising posters on what the 'law' is, completely incorrectly - they were well-versed in the policies of the company they worked in but not in the law generally and were assuming their policies were law.

I'd go for both if I were you, a union rep to accompany you to a hearing, and check your insurance for legal cover if you want a legal opinion about your case and next steps, although as we've all said, a grievance will need to be raised before you can take any legal action anyway.

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure how much more clear I can make it? I was not and am not disputing the fact of whether or not I get paid or dont get paid for ANY type of sickness.

He told me that company employees were afforded days off for illness - without repercussions of any sort.

My point is that he mis-informed me as an agency employee as I am obviously NOT entitled to that.. That was my original point but it's clearly by the by anyway so I wont be mentioning this...

I've already written my grievance letter - a first draft.. there's not much I can do until the tomorrow really.

I'll be seeking a legal opinion but also I'll have a colleague in with me during any future hearings.

I feel I have a good enough case to not need anyone to argue it for me, but it will be nice to have someone in there as a witness to anything and all that was said and also for moral support.. Hmm..

I'll update if it gets any more sticky and isn't resolved! Wish me luck :]

How much time off did you have for the three occasions of the pregnancy related problems?

You're making it perfectly clear. You said you had an 'issue' with the fact that the H&S rep misinformed you and felt someone should have done your risk assessment who did know all the ins and outs of the agency's policies.

That is not necessary for a H&S rep. He was wrong to advise you on something like that, but his incorrect advice had no negative repercussions for you at all, as you admit, so I was just unclear as to why you felt this was an issue.

You're welcome, by the way.

Flowery, I wasn't very clear with what I said about the union rep being a better bet than the employment lawyer. I was thinking as I was typing about them being a better bet as a representative rather than seeking legal advice then going in alone. I wasn't clear at all, was I?!

OP, just read your post about feeling you have a good enough case to go in unrepresented.

If this was the case you wouldn't have received a verbal warning as the issue would have been resolved at the initial disciplinary meeting.

Your agency clearly does not understand this area of employment rights and repeating what you've already told them isn't necessarily going to make a difference. You need someone else there to help you present your case effectively. Don't underestimate how difficult a grievance hearing can be.

flowery has already pointed out all the relavent wrongs/rights of this.

What I would want you to ask yourself is what exactly you want to achieve? Yes, I can see that you are angry (I would be fuming too) and no, they should not do this, and yes, they ought to realise that this shouldn't happen again.....

BUT. What exactly are you aiming for? A reluctant admission that they were wrong and discipline overturned (most likely scenario), or a grovelling apology, or something else? You need to work out what you want to achieve before doing anything else. Otherwise you are going to tear yourself into pieces and not 'get over it' IYSWIM? If all you want is a withdrawal of their disciplinary decision, then send in the letter, but then try to chill over the whole matter, because stressing out and getting angry and all of that isn't going to achieve anything positive, and puts you at a disadvantage - I can assure you that it isn't personal for them so the only one who will be losing sleep over it is you. Try to stay as detached as possible - the risk if you don't is that you will achieve your aims but still remain incandescant, which is not good for future relations. Work out what you need to achieve and try to treat it as just another 'task' in your in-tray.

I do, by the way, know exactly how you feel. I had to bring in the lawyers when I was PG because of sex discrim (totally different scenario to yours, though) - all the anger does no good at all, and is the last thing you need when PG.

Sorry, of course I am extremely grateful to everybody that has posted with advice and support and input regarding my situation - I should have said that alot sooner..(though in my defence I did make a provisional massive thank you and show of appreciation in my OP, but you're still right)

Flowerybeanbag - sorry, I didn't mean my last post to sound rude about the H&S issue - just when I was reading what you were writing regarding it, you kept mentioning payment for time off sick due to pg and I thought you thought that's what I was getting at..

What I'd like to achieve is obviously to have my own disciplinary overturned, but also, for my agency to change their company policy accordingly - i.e. that they should be making a distinction between pg-related illness and non pg-related illness.

As somebody has said, they will be completely detached from this case and it will be more of a paper exercise to them - they are looking at 3 instances of absence, in black and white, on my attendance record and it is patently obvious they don't care what the root causes or reasons are.

I just don't want other women to have to go through the same thing - as I wonder just how many women would even question they way they are being treat.

Who wants to have to worry about whether or not you can go on bedrest without fear of a verbal or written disciplinary? Who wants to worry that when you have m/s (the same if not worse than mine) that you MUST go into work because you're sickness is caused by pregnancy, which isn't an illness in itself, but can cause such disruptive and severe symptoms that under normal circumstances (not being pg) you'd self certify and have the day off or a few days off..

I think it's coming off as if I'm on some sort of crusade, which I'm not.. honestly.

When I mentioned I had a strong enough case to go in un-represented, I had done so much preparation - official documentation, ECJ cases and rulings, guidance from reputable sources, a copy of my own attendance record to show I wasn't at all a persistent offender (even before pgny) I was calm and collected, I did not lose my temper or resort to mud slinging. I was actually very methodical in my approach.

Obviously I think it had alot to do with the person that held my disciplinary hearing because he made the decision based on my evidence... evidence which he refused to even read through - but all of this I have noted down to discuss in my grievance...

Again, a huge thank you to all who have replied, you have kept me sane over the weekend, particularly in confirmation that I'm not contesting this just for the sake of it, but that I do have a case. I shall be ringing the tribunal unit tomorrow to arrange a meeting - not because I want it to go to a tribunal, thats the branch of CAB that's in my catchment area that deals with grievance issues and then advice on what steps to take after that.

Believe me, once it gets to a tribunal they will start taking you very seriously indeed, and walking on eggshells. With some people, it's the only language they understand. So go for it.

Unless there's something you're not telling us, it's clear these idiots haven't got a clue about equality issues and need teaching the hard way.

This is the only way forward for the sisterhood, frankly.

Were you disciplined by one of my managers - this is just his style (unfortunately). We have to keep reining him in or the Union rep would spontanously combust with the stress.

No real advice to offer but thinking of you.

no no, there's seriously nothing I'm not letting on to - the only thing I did which I hold my hands up to is that I referred to the HR department at my agency as 'bunch of arseholes' which clearly I shouldnt have done. But it was utter frustrationa dn heat of the moment..

Aaanyway, will just have to play it by ear - I've got my meeting at the tribunal unit on Thursday...

:]

Bunch of arseholes is a massive understatement.

What time is it on Thursday, so we can all send good MN vibes?

And so the plot thickens..

There's another girl on my team who is pregnant and has had multiple instances of absence.

She went for her 12 week scan yesterday and was shocked to discover she was actually 26 weeks pregant and in light of her circumstances, they have decided NOT to give her a dsciplinary!!

Now, this is completely true and fair - and the fact is, she, like me, should not have been having a disciplinary procedure to begin with.

However, they have flouted the very policy that they rammed down my throat during MY disciplinary hearing which is that no distinction is made regardless of absence, cause, illness suffered and gender.

Even if she DIDN'T know she was pregnant it would have counted as standard illness, but now she does know she was pregnant at the time, it become pregnancy related, but because our agency makes no distinction the disciplinary should have still stood (albeit incorrectly)

It's now become a case about not only sexual discrimination, but also personal discrimination as I don't see how they made the decision to let her off the hook, but continue with their staunch view that I MUST be reprimanded for my persistent (3 instances) absence.

Tribunal unit meeting was pointless today - they looked over all of my paperwork and made me another appointment to see somebody else NEXT Thursday so we can start the grievance process.

I'm so EFFING MAD!!!!!!!!!!!!