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Original poster

Holiday entitlement, bank holidays and the part-time worker

31 replies

SixSpotBonfire · 14/10/2008 11:33

I work four days a week with Thursday as my usual day off.

This time around, both Christmas Day and New Year's Day fall on a Thursday so I feel as if I am in effect losing my day off in those weeks. However, I am being told by HR where I work that I am not entitled to take two other days off to compensate.

This means that I will have two fewer bank holidays in this holiday year than I would have been entitled to in the last holiday year.

That doesn't seem right to me. Any HR types able to explain?

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 14/10/2008 11:40

Leave aside for a moment which days fall when. As a part timer you can't lose out compared to a full time person.

So a full time person in a 'normal' 9-5 mon-fri job gets 8 bank holidays a year. As a 4 day a week person you would therefore get 8/5x4 = 6.4 bank holidays.

As long as you've had your quota in any one year, then you're fine and they've no obligation to give you extra. If you haven't had that many this year, then you need some more.

Make sense?

It's not about comparing with what you had last year, it's about comparing with a full time person, and making sure you are not losing out over the year.

I am working on the assumption that full time people get paid bank holidays in addition to their annual leave entitlement btw.

Might be worth checking what your contract/handbook says, it may indicate how they do it where you are. But the principle is you can't lose out compared to a full time person, so it's about counting the days you've had rather than what days they actually were.

titchy · 14/10/2008 11:44

You are entitled to bank holiday leave, pro-rata's to your normal hours. So presumably as you work 4 dyas a week you're on an 80% of full time contract. So you are entitled to take 80% of the 8 days bank holidays we get each year i.e. 6.4 days. Obviously most of those you will take as you would normally be working when the BHs fall, but the remainder shoudl be added to your leave entitlement.

However it may be that your leave year gives you 6.4 bank hols....

If your leave year runs from 31 Jan, then in 2008/09 you expect to have taken 2 x Easter BH, 2 x May BH, 1 x aug BH, so 5 in all. You also get Boxing day which brings you to 6. So you ARE entitled to take the remaining 0.4 dyas as leave.

If your company says you can;t they are disciminating against part time workers which is illegal now!

titchy · 14/10/2008 11:46

Sorry meant to add, if your leave year runs from 1 Jan then you've already had 1 extra day off as NYDay was a bank hol and fell in your current leave year - technically you owe them!

elliott · 14/10/2008 11:48

It may be the case that in previous years you have taken all the bank holidays (since they don't usually fall on a thursday!) and have actually had more bank holidays than you are strictly entitled to. So I'd think carefully before you push this, about whether you will actually end up with fewer holidays in subsequent years if you play it 'by the book'. Since you're only entitled to 6.4 bh pro-rata, in a year when no bank holidays fall on a thursday, you'd have to use 1.6 days of annual leave to take the all the bank holidays.

Original poster
SixSpotBonfire · 14/10/2008 11:53

Thanks - I'm still very confused! Leave year runs from 1 Sept - 31 Aug.

I've only been here since Jan and I foolishly didn't check when I changed jobs how they calculated the holiday entitlement for part-timers and so was rather shocked to find that I only get 21 days here instead of 23-34 days at my old work. This bank holiday business just seems like adding insult to injury really!

OP posts:
sameagain · 14/10/2008 11:58

I'd be very careful how you flag this up. As others said you are entitled to 6.4 bank hols a year, so they may owe you 0.4 days this year, but they'd also be entitled to ask you to reduce your annual leave by 1.6 days in a year (most) when no bank hols fall on a Thurs. I'd keep quiet.

flowerybeanbag · 14/10/2008 11:58

What are you still confused about sixspot?

Have a look at your calendar and see how many bank holidays you've had off this year/will have off the coming year.

If you are getting less than 6.4, then you need to make that up, and you need to discuss with your manager/HR when you will be able to do that.

If you've had/will have more than that, then you're fine.

Why is it adding insult to injury? At the moment it's not clear whether you are losing out at all. Work out first whether you are losing out or not, if you are, point that out to them and if they still refuse to allow you to make up the difference, then feel free to feel insulted as that is illegal.

bozza · 14/10/2008 12:01

As far as I know the way that has been described here is statutory. It wasn't when i started parttime work 7 years ago.

I work 3 days a week. My annual leave is 16.2 (days) adn my bank hols are 4.8 days which works out really well as 21 days. I have to take any bank holidays that fall on working days (Tues to Thurs so not many) out of that 21 days. So it does make a difference if Christmas falls like this year and I have to use 3 days of my leave entitlement up on the bank hols. But that just means I have the days fixed rather than floating.

I see what you are saying re it feeling like you don't have a day off, because I tend to feel rather like that at Easter. But in effect if I wanted to I could book Thurs and Tues extra to give me a longer weekend.

Original poster
SixSpotBonfire · 14/10/2008 12:01

Okay - so I have the choice between arguing about the 0.4 and having someone in HR then take my holiday away from me next year, or keeping quiet? That's a no-brainer, I think.

I will just take some unpaid time off I think (I am entitled to that as parent of a child with SN, I think) to bridge the gap...

OP posts:
elliott · 14/10/2008 12:02

But flowerybeanbag, surely if she flags it up, there is a risk the HR dept will say, 'oh yes, you're right, you only get 6.4 bank holidays and you'll need to use annual leave next year to take them all off...' Or alternatively they may just look baffled and not notice next year...

SSB, what is your % full time equivalent? and what is the normal holiday allowance for a full timer? 21 days sounds right if you are on 80% and a full timer would have 25 days holiday.

bozza · 14/10/2008 12:03

in our company you would definitely be expected to take additional bank hols out of your leave if your bank hol allocation was less than the actual bank hols on working days.

flowerybeanbag · 14/10/2008 12:04

Sorry not with you elliott? Use annual leave to take them all off?

Original poster
SixSpotBonfire · 14/10/2008 12:06

I don't understand it either elliott. At my old firm the full-timers got 26 days holiday but for some reason I got 23 days. I had not realised that this seemed to be more generous than just a strict pro rata, iyswim. Here the holiday is 25 days so I can see that pro rata mine is 21 days but it is hard not to feel as if I have lost two days holiday. But it is my own fault for being so slack and not trying to negotiate a better deal when I joined.

OP posts:
PavlovtheWitchesCat · 14/10/2008 12:08

As far as I am aware Floweybeanbag has it spot on.

As part time, I take all the allocated bank holidays, and work out my entitlement pro rata against my working hours.

This gets added to my annual leave entitlement. (say 29 + 5), to take as I choose.

When there is a bank holiday that I would usually work, but get off, this comes out of my annual leave entitlement, if I am not normally required to work this, my leave remains unchanged.

Full time workers get their leave, and no added bank holidays. So when they have bank holidays off, it does not come out of their leave entitlement.

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 14/10/2008 12:18

I have just read the rest of the posts. I am a bit confused now.

This year, in our year, which runs april to april, there is only 6 leave days (due to easter falling in last year) so I get pro rata equ. so if for example it is 6.4 one year that has 8 bank holiday days, it would not be 6.4 in a year that only has 6. it would be a lesser equivalent.

Surely it works on the basis same as hours? if you work average 162 per month. It does not necessarily mean you work those hours each month, due to nature of weekends, number of days ih month, some months more, some months less, but over the year, it adds up to the same as 162 hours per month.

If you get time owed to you one year, then another year you will be owed. So, either way, nothing should be done as it all works out.

Original poster
SixSpotBonfire · 14/10/2008 12:21

tbh I just assumed that if you were at work you were entitled to the bank holiday - I never realised that you had your bank holidays pro-rated too

I think ignorance was bliss, frankly!

OP posts:
elliott · 14/10/2008 12:24

sorry I meant the same scenario as bozza described. Say all 8 bank holidays fell on days when you worked, you would need to make up the difference between 6.4 and 8 out of your annual leave.

Original poster
SixSpotBonfire · 14/10/2008 12:26

The thought is making my blood run cold, elliott.

OP posts:
elliott · 14/10/2008 12:27

Well, I think a lot of companies worked on the same assumption too (i.e. just take the bank holidays off if they fall on your working days). Problem is taht this disadvantages those who don't work on a monday, and also occasionally disadvantages others depending on the days the bhols fall in any year.

Original poster
SixSpotBonfire · 14/10/2008 12:28

At my old workplace they did adjust annual leave to take account of it - which I reckon meant they added on days - which is presumably why I had a more generous holiday entitlement there.

Oh well [sulks].

OP posts:
elliott · 14/10/2008 12:30

Sorry, but it is fair....
I think you'll just have to accept that you used to have an unusually generous deal.
Having said that, I'm lucky in that no-one really notices when I'm here or not, so I just tend to take the bank holidays off (since my normal day off is friday) and call it quits - I don't claim back good friday for example. HOwever, if I were to change my day off to a monday, I'd probably change my mind about how I worked it...

elliott · 14/10/2008 12:31

Yes, that's one way of doing it - but then you should have used your leave days for any bank holiday falling on a day you worked

PavlovtheWitchesCat · 14/10/2008 12:33

Elloitt - it affected my DH, he did not work Mondays, and only every other fridays. He had to fight his employers to recognise the new law as it meant he got no BH off at all. They backdated it however when he mentioned 'legal advice' . Luckily, he does not work there any more.

padboz · 14/10/2008 12:34

I write HR software for a living - I do a lot of this! Tell them to buy a decent HR package and it will do it for them in the mean time, send me your hours and that of a standard worker and I'll do it for you and break it down.

Simplysally · 14/10/2008 12:35

I've been reading this thread with interest and this seems to be one area that the doms here haven't picked up on (very unusual as they're sharp to spot anything else that they might be missing out on!). I have to pro-rata annual leave for staff that start midway throughout the year/work a mixture of weekends/weekdays/reach the next level of seniority or change their contracted hours or all four. So far, no one seeem to have caught on about pro-rata bank holidays .