Am royally hacked off - floweybeanbag I should have listened to you [sad]

[LittleMyDancingForJoy]

So (for those of you that didn't see my other thread) - I'm 14 wks pg, looking for a job, and last week got offered a good job with a gov't agency. Thinking that I was doing the decent thing (and going against advice on here, shall never do that again) I told them I was pregnant when they offered me the job, thinking that they couldn't withdraw the offer without being discriminatory.

Anyway, I asked them about the possibility of flexible working (4 days a week, possibly compressed hours) and they asked me in for a meeting today, which I've just had.

Now they didn't do anything technically wrong or illegal in the meeting, but I was left with the overall impression, reading between the lines, that they would much rather I turned this job down.

They talked a lot about how things are changing very fast in the team, and it's a very challenging time for the organisation. They went through the job description and emphasised how much work it is, and also emphasised that this person would have to travel to the regions on a regular basis.

They asked me if the travel to the office would be a problem (it's out of town and parking is limited) and whether I could do the regional travel.

They offered me right at the bottom of the salary bracket for the role, but said that everyone starts at what they called the 'interim' point, and then at the next pay review their performance is assessed and most people get a big jump in salary at that point.

They gave me a copy of their flexible working policy but said that it was at the manager's discretion, and they would not expect people to apply for it until they'd been in post at least a year or 18 months.

They said that compressed hours was not feasible on H&S grounds, especially as I'm pregnant.

At no point did they say anything encouraging like 'we are really keen for you to join us' or 'your experience really fits the role' or anything positive at all. In fact they avoided using any terms that implied that I would be taking the job at all.

So I was left basically feeling like they really hoped I would find it too difficult to take on and turn it down. There was lots of 'If you think you can do the role' and 'If you think you can deliver on those objectives' etc etc.

Not really sure if there's any advice people can give me, but I really expected better of a government organisation. I am hacked off, disappointed, and a little worried about the future.

It does sound like a poor show by them.

On the other hand -try to think positive!

In the past when I have been recruiting for new staff I have used a similar tactic.
I can remember a situation where a candidate seemed ideal for the job but had less experience than ideally required. I bigged up the job to make it sound as tough etc as it could be and then waited for the candidiate to either step up with confidence and say 'Yes, I can do that!' or to wither a bit and have doubts.
They showed confidence, I gave them the job and they were great.

Show your confidence, say 'Yes, I can manage that fine, I'll take the job' and then when you've shown how good you are you can put in your requests for flexible working and they'll be more amenable I'm sure.

Good luck!

You're right Zazette, I do need to take the emotions out of it and think about it rationally, not easily when my hormones are all over the shop!

And jelliebelly, you're right, I do need to be convinced I can do this job before I accept.

Life working for DP would be much easier from a practical point of view (walk to work, understanding boss, shorter hours, near to DS' nursery etc etc) but we would be financially much worse off. It would mean using some of our savings to live on until I got a new job after ML, so that's 18 months of living on our savings plus MA/my earnings from working for DP. I need to sit down and work out how much of a hole that would make in the savings.

Working for DP is also better for DS, in that he gets two full days at home with me, plus a relatively short nursery day (pick up at 4.30pm)

Doing this job would be good from a career point of view in that it's a role in the field I normally work in, and a financial point of view, but would be much harder work practically (full time, new role, commute in the opposite direction to where DS is at nursery). It would also mean us becoming quite military about planning as DP works away at least one or two nights a week, so travel for my job would need to be planned carefully so as not to coincide with him being away.

Dp thinks we should get a nanny, but I think that would wipe out all of the financial benefits of me working! Could be worth looking into though, I suppose.

oooh, lots of x-posts! Flowery is right, I didn't meet with any HR people so I suspect that they have advised the people I did meet with on the legalities of it all and no more. There was very little mention of HR at all.

2point4, that's an interesting point, I hadn't thought of it like that. I think being out of work for a while has knocked my confidence generally, so I do feel a bit fragile, but rationally I know I can do this job - in my last job I ran a whole team of people doing what this job is!

And thumbsucker, you're probably right too, in that their team has recently been restructured (for which read slimmed down quite significantly) and the Head of Department is making lots of changes to how the team's going to work, so they're probably not overjoyed at the idea of hiring someone who isn't going to be around to help implement the changes.

Playing devils advocate a bit here but it sounds as though this job has just come along at the wrong time - your last post listed at least half a dozen reasons why it would make more sense to stay where you are for the time being - money being the obvious exception but is money really worth your sanity??

Is this your number 1 dream job or is it possible that a similar position may be available after your maternity leave?

On the enhanced SMP - the policy doesn't say anything about how long you have to have worked there to get it, all it says is:

"If you have worked for a previous employer during the qualifying week, they may pay SMP. Where a previous employer is obliged to pay SMP pay, you must notify your manager and the will deduct SMP from your pay."

Hmmmm - is it my dream job.....sort of. It's a good job, reasonable pay, good name to work for, in my chosen field, nice immediate boss.

Unfortunately, I was in possession of my dream job back in 2006, but some $%£$$%&$%%%$$$ feckers took over the company, moved all operations to Paris, shut down Head Office in Bristol and made everyone redundant, so that was the end of that.

If I don't take it, I'm worried about being out of my field for too long and not being able to pick up my career again.

I'm worried about money, but won't know how bad that is until I sit down and do the sums tonight.

I'm worried about DP's income and my income both depending on his business, with the current economic climate.

Little - I'm in Bristol too, if ever you want to meet up to offload. Not sure what is happening atm with Ma in law situation but when I'm free, feel free to offload or CAT me. You sound pretty stressed and you don't want that with being pg XX

what have you got to lose by accepting the job? In a worst case scenario you take it, it doesn't work out and you leave - would you have a role with dp's business to fall back on?

It the best case scenario, you take the job, enjoy it, do well at it and return after your maternity leave - on balance it is probably worth the risk imo

Thanks Puss, that's really kind . I think I need to go home and sit down and think about it rationally - I came out of the meeting feeling really upset and emotional, and I need to let it all wear off and then think calmly about whether I can realistically do the job, and whether it's worth it.

If only I could have a drink!

Will check back in when I get home for any more pearls of wisdom, you ladies have been most helpful already, so thank you

Take the job. Do it well - don't fret about this meeting - when you start, just pretend it never happened. The economic climate is rotten at the moment, and it's well worth being in a job for a while, even if you use it to look for another one later on.
You seem to be losing confidence so it's more important than ever to get back to doing the job that you say yourself you can do. It will be much harder to look after the baby is born.

You will have a few months with the job, then ml, and so you know what you are doing for the next year or so. At the moment, that's a massive luxury.

Little - I'm sure you will find once you are in post that most government jobs are really family friendly. My dh is a civil servant and I work for the NHS and we have both swapped and changed our hours / days over the last few years. Plus you get lots of holiday and carer leave when the dcs are ill.

I can see where they are coming from though - I agree with wanabee regarding the employers perspective. We employed someone recently who was pregnant and she is great. However, she was only finally 'fully trained' a few weeks before she went off on maternity leave and we have to trin someone else up to cover for the time she is off. We wouldn't change the decision - but it definetly felt like 'on Bol*ks' when we found out.

You just have to go and tough it out and I'm sure you find out it was worth it in the end.

I agree with oranges - take the job. It will give your options than you have at present.

Whether there's a qualifying period for enhanced maternity pay or not depends on employer - a lot of councils (the one I work for included) have a minimum period of employment now, but it wasn't always the case, and it may be that no such period or a shorter one is in place in the civil service.

Even if you don't, the job for 5 months and at least SMP would be better than not having a job before you have the baby. I think you should take the job for the time, look forward to your nice boss coming back and do your best. And you could check out the flexible working at least for your return - is it really written down that you have to be there 18 months? Presumably that would only be a few months after you return from ML anyway (as ML does count in length of service). And there's also annual leave while you're there and what you accrue while you're off, you might be able to use that to make the working week more manageable.

I think you're all right - I should take it. Just got that fear now.....what if DS collapses in a heap at having to go to full time nursery? what if he never speaks to me again or gets emotional problems because I worked full time? What if I get so stressed with this new job that something happens to the baby? What if I can't do the job and end up making a complete idiot of myself? What if the world ends tomorrow?

etc etc

the wonderful world of maternal guilt and doubt.....

going to talk it over with DP. I think he would much rather I didn't take it, as he's losing not just an employee, but also it means he's going to have to do a bit more in terms of childcare etc, but realistically working for him is no good for our relationship, my career or our financial security.

If it helps - I'm basically working full time and dd3 seems to be thriving actually. I think we all ask ourselves these questions but really working outside the home or not is a very complicated isssue and there actually is no black and white answer. You just have to be living in a state of grey that you can live with! And nothing is going to happen to the baby - they are tough and cosy in there. The only person who may end up knackered is you - but cross that bridge when and if you get to it!

Yes, DS loves his nursery and by the time this baby comes he'll be three and in the preschool bit of it, which he's itching to do - he knows all his numbers already up to 12, and knows most of the letters, so he's dying to do some learning with their absolutely fab nursery teacher.

I just feel bad about depriving him of all that Mummy time, which I know we both get a lot out of. But then if it's the choice between Mummy time or eating, I know which I'd choose

(It isn't that bad, but we would be quite strapped for cash.)

It's the age old problem of being a working mother, isn't it - damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

So Mumsnet is still here after the shutdown, I see! That's good.

Have been awake since 5am when DS wanted to come into our bed, and can't sleep for thinking about this job thing, so I thought it might help to jot down my thoughts on here......thinking aloud really, and it's very early so be kind! DS and DP are still snoring away

So I can, of course, see where my prospective employers are coming from in that it's not an ideal situation for them. It's not ideal for me either, but I can't expect them to care about that.

I think what I was hoping for in that meeting yesterday was that as I had been human and down to earth with them, and told them much earlier than I had to about the baby, that they would return the courtesy and have a human discussion with me about the job. Instead, what I got was the letter of the law (or policy in this case) and a stonewall attitude. Hence why I'm so peeved.

To be honest, I'm feeling a bit glum about the whole thing. I did actually really want to do this job, and do it well, and I was foolish enough to think that me having a baby was neither here nor there.

But now the best I can see happening is that I work my arse off for five months and get stressed and tired and DS has a rubbish time, go on ML, they recruit someone to replace me, and if I take Additional Maternity Leave (which I was planning to) then they keep that person on permanently and offer me some rubbish role somewhere they know I can't get to easily in order to get rid of me. Then they'll have to pay me severance (is that right?) and I'll end up still without a job, and it'll just reinforce everyone's view that I was just in it for the Maternity Pay and benefits. Another blow struck for women's rights and equality. Not.

I know that's a glum view of things, but I haven't had a lot of sleep.

I just don't know if I feel up to going and working somewhere where people already feel, before they've even met me, that I'm taking them for a ride.

I also had another question, you lovely HR people out there - when they first offered me the job, they were full of 'when can you start' and 'are you available immediately' - now they seem to be stretching things out as long as possible. It took them a week to set up this meeting, and when I asked when they wanted an answer by, they said 'oh, no rush, end of next week would be fine'

Is there any benefit to them of stretching out the process like this? Are they trying to reduce my average earnings to reduce the SMP? My understanding was that the average is calculated on 8 weeks before the qualifying week, which would mean from 17 weeks pregnant, is that right? So if I don't start within three weeks, my average earnings start reducing, is that right?

You see, now I sound like I am just in it for the money.

LittleMyDancingForJoy - if you are pregnant already but haven't yet started the job then legally they don't even have to pay you SMP you would only qualify for MA.

To get SMP you must have been:

Employed by your employer into the qualifying week which is the 15th week before the week your baby is due; and
Employed by the same employer continuously (some breaks do not interrupt continuity) for at least 26 weeks into the 15th week before the week your baby is due.

When I told work I was pregnant my boss said I would get SMP etc (which at the time was backed up by HR), however then HR decided to do their homework and came back with no you won't get it as we won't be able to claim it back from the gov't as you haven't worked here long enough. I was only 3 weeks pg when I joined my company.

LMD no benefit at all, as Libra says, it's not about the SMP as you won't get that. If they've confirmed you'll get maternity pay they mean their own scheme, so it will depend on the terms and conditions of that.

Either way, I'd start asap if I were you.

I know you're feeling a bit down but there is no reason to immediately assume they'll take some marvellous person on and want to keep them and want to get rid of you. At the moment it's very clear that you are the best person for the job. So why wouldn't you still be the best person for the job after your maternity leave?

And who are these people who think you are taking them for a ride? Your manager doesn't, does he? That's what counts.

I think whoever this senior manager is that you had the meeting with is irritated, but that doesn't mean he/she thinks you are just in it for the maternity pay, more than he/she is annoyed you won't be around very long and they'll have to recruit again.

Obviously I don't want to push you into taking the job if you don't want to. But remember the reasons you were offered it in the first place. It's because you are good, you are the best person for the job, and the manager offered it to you even though he suspected you were pregnant. That's a pretty good endorsement of how highly he views your potential contribution.

LMD, you are talking yourself out of your own job here

Try to think of it that your employers wanted you to be as fully aware of the role at the beginning of your employment as possible, so that you can hit the road running.

It doesn't matter what the people you talked to intended, you can use the information to your advantage.

Re: Flexible working, 6 months is 26 weeks, so taking you up to your due date. Even if you only take 6 or 9 months maternity leave, you will have been there over a year by the time you return, thus fulfilling their expectations.

I think you are over thinking this. Get in touch, accept the job. Don't expect anything other than MA, then be pleasantly surprised if you get anything more.

I know you're right, and I do feel more cheerful after some breakfast...

I think my confidence has been a bit dented by not getting interviews for a long time, plus being hormonal and emotional, and the meeting yesterday just knocked me for six. Plus I'm sad at losing my days at home with DS, and it will be hard work, there's no denying that, but as DP said this morning, if I wanted an easy life I'd just stay working for him and say bye to a career.

I guess it's only five months of full time, and then if they refuse my application for flexible working after ML then I can choose to get a job somewhere else, and as many of you have said, I'll have this on my CV.

I am very confused about the maternity pay thing, but as you say lou, I'll just expect MA and then anything over and above that would be a bonus. We'd still be better off than we were if I hadn't taken the job.

flowery, they've said they'll put everything in writing, should I ask them to confirm the maternity pay when they do that, or should I do that when I start? To get MA I think I have to apply before I'm 26 weeks, so I'll need to know by then if they're going to pay me or not, so maybe I'm best off leaving it until I've started and I can contact HR?

Right, off to find a cleaner now!

employers are far more willing to be flexible with people once they've actually started. so don't ask about maternity leave in writing, or they will offer you the bare minimum so they don't have to commit themselves. Just start - the more you write, the more it seems you really should take this job to get your professional confidence back. I had the same conversation with a boss, who heard I had a small child and called to say the hours were awful, unpredictable etc. I said fine and started, and they have been really fair, with regular hours.

Thanks oranges, that's encouraging to hear! It's no wonder women find it difficult to go back to work with attitudes like that, isn't it?

I think I will take it. As you say, I need to get my professional confidence back.