Demotion or stay and fight?

[Holdonforsummer]

I work as a senior manager, managing about 30 people. For about two years, it has been awful: a small minority of the people I line-manage are rude and hostile. HR aren’t supportive and can be actively unpleasant. My boss is weak, frequently off work and inconsistent. In short, I have been very stressed for the last two years. A few weeks ago when it got particularly bad, I applied for a role in a different team (same company): it is a technically a demotion and about an £8k pay drop but the idea of doing something new with new people is very appealing. While I was waiting for an interview for the new job, my boss’s boss has got involved and is now saying she is going to help me turn the situation and my current team around. I don’t know if I believe her or if it is even possible. I interviewed for the new (lower) role today and feel they might offer it to me tomorrow. My dilemma is: accept demotion and an £8k pay drop or stay and accept help to turn my current toxic team around (with no guarantee of it working). Jobs in the new team don’t come up very often. What would you do?

I would stay and take them for constructive dismissal, sounds like you have evidence

But the demotion is entirely my choice, to step out of the toxic team. Thanks for replying though

Take it. Life is too short to be miserable. I don’t believe your manager will help you fix the issue, they’ve had two years and only want to help because they will have to deal with it when you transfer out. Leave them all to it. Too little to late.

To be honest, that is the way I am heading. We can manage financially with the drop in pay but I’ve worked really hard to become a manager and it does pain me to step down. But at the same time, where have they all been for the last two years? It doesn’t make me feel like I owe them anything. I feel slight guilt towards the other managers who would be left trying to clean up the mess.

Leave them by the road and run. It won’t get better unless they all leave

The worst case scenario would be accepting the demotion, still trying to operate at your current level and still getting aggro from the new team.

I would accept the demotion if

1. There are sufficient boundaries/differences to mean you don't end up doing a more senior role for free.

1. You are sure the culture in the new team is actually better.

I would also ask for them to consider the max pay for the new role to reflect your experience and see if you can reduce the 8k gap a bit. They know what they are getting from an internal candidate so you are less risky than an external hire plus presumably have relevant experience.

Thank you. Yes, there is a manager in place in the new team so I don’t think I would be pushed to do more senior work - I would have no direct employees to line-manage in the new role. I can try and negotiate on pay a bit but they have quite strict pay banding. I just can’t shake the feeling I have failed - we are always told to move up and earn more but honestly I haven’t enjoyed the experience!

get a written plan in place before the deadline for accepting the other offer.
almost like you’re PIP-ing your employer.
also, not sure about your role but managing 30 people sounds too much. Are they all direct line reports

If the difference between no direct reports and 30 direct reports is 8K then you are not being paid correctly in your current role.

From personal experience I would take the new job. I did something similar, albeit several years ago now, and not once regretted it. Sounds like your boss is now panicking because they know if you leave shit will hit the fan - I would also guess they know how toxic your team is but your 'Mrs dependable' so leave you to it. Good luck!!

Can you explain the situation to your boss’s boss? Do they know that you’ve been so stressed you were ready to do anything to leave? S/he may not have realised how bad it has got and might be willing to take even more decisive action rather than have to recruit for your role. If you could get something in writing about real change that might help your stress levels.

But I would actually say protect your health above all else. Do you know the new department is definitely better?

To answer some questions: as a senior manager, I manage four managers who each line manage about six people. But if there are issues with any of those people, the problems make their way up to me as senior manager (which is where my estimate of 30 people comes from). My boss seems to get away with being absent as her role is seen as more operational. The new team is exactly that - brand new so an unknown entity. The manager and senior manager seem nice. I could talk to my boss’s boss tomorrow if I am offered the new role - I know she would want to keep me but I think it’s in part because she knows things will be even more tricky if I leave. And I don’t know how much to believe she can help turn this around. Our industry is heavily unionised and it is really hard to get rid of the toxic people even if they are horrible or even if they are bad at their job.

Op can you give any more details on the nature of the problems?

I am middle management in the NHS. Nightmare as - like you - we can’t get rid of people who are bad apples and those are the ones who seem to want to stay. So you may well be stuck with problem people and then the only choice is to accept that or leave.

having said that, in my role things became a lot better when I got a decent manager. Just being able to offload some of the shit and get someone to help me prioritise has helped a lot. So there is a chance your boss’s boss may be able to make a real difference.

Gosh, so difficult to summarise. About five members of staff are vocal about how much they hate the job (but won’t leave as they are paid well). They are rude, passive aggressive, push back on everything. Then when my managers and I try to manage them, they complain and HR back down and force us to back down too. We are asked to hit targets/KPIs but when we try, the old crew complain, say they are being micro managed and forced to work harder than is reasonable. This is simply not true. I would feel differently if my immediate boss were able to support me/us but she doesn’t seem able to. So I feel stuck in the middle constantly - asked to manage and run a business but not backed up when employees refuse to do what we are asking them to do. It is similar to NHS in some ways.

You have stated the main issues are the people,HR and your and in reality will these things change if you stay in your current role? Your willingness to actively seek demotion has been a wake-up call to them but I would ask why has it taken this long to support you.

Urgh with that update 100% leave. The trouble causing guys will NEVER leave and only drag more people down with them. Just picture yourself going into work and not having to deal with the mood hoovers ever again!

Those lazy people won’t leave and they’re seemingly unsackable. Therefore, the person who’s trying to make you stay won’t be able to deliver significant improvements, much as I’m sure they’d like to. It’s futile.

Take the new role. Even 1 problem employee is so stressful. Let alone the number you are having to deal with. There’s no way your bosses boss can magically turn that around. Unless she’s willing to move the poor performers to a different team

Leave. 100% leave. I have been managing a problem team for 4 years. Everyone knows that they're the most awkward team. I have tried everything but one moans constantly and pokes his nose in everyone else's work, another cannot be critiqued, thinks her grammar is perfect (we are the frontline team for external correspondence) but uses "could of" "should of" etc despite being corrected. I did succeed in managing out one of them but it drained me completely. I'm now applying for anything and everything that has no line management just so i can escape. My line manager says we can turn the team around but they're in their 50s, I very much doubt anyone can change them now!

I never had a management role in any of my jobs. I have worked in a number of places with both good and bad managers.

Where I currently work part time I had the same manager for a few year's. I flexible regarding my hour's, days and what I did in my job. The same manager then refused to change one of my days and never even looked the schedule or other people working hour's before doing this.

My manager handed in there notice a few months ago. I decided not to apply for the managers role despite having experience and a background for it. I did not want to be managing staff. A new manager was appointed and they are far better. I have gotten one of my days changed. I am working on a project that will improve a certain thing in the business. My new manager is willing to give me extra training on our systems as well. I have decided to look for a new job with more hours and pay after this as it will improve my finances and pension if I do this.

I think in your situation you need to do what best for you and your mental health. Dealing with staff can be hard but dealing with people who refuse to listen, to make changes and then expect you to clear up there mess is soul destroying. Your current big boss does not want you to leave but they had 2 year's to make changes and pull certain people up and they have done nothing.
I know that your talking a pay drop of £8,000. Could you ask your new boss could they push to give you a better starting salary? Could you work from home 1 or 2 days a week ( if this is beneficial for you)?

I would also look up one of the salary and tax websites that work out your tax and income because maybe the £8000 drop would mean more of your salary is on a lower tax band. If you can get a nicer job with no people management and a better boss I would strongly consider moving from your current role.
You can always move, stay for a while in this role and then look at leaving the company if a better paid role come up elsewhere.

Oh love, what a position to be in. Here's the thing though, you've been drowning for two years, HR has been useless, your boss is absent, and now suddenly the big boss wants to help? That timing, right when you've got one foot out the door, tells you everything. Where was this support when you were struggling? Eight grand is a lot, but so is your mental health and sanity. If the new role excites you and these opportunities are rare, I'd seriously consider taking it. A fresh start with new people, no baggage, and actually enjoying work again might be worth more than the pay difference. Trust your gut on this one.

Thank you for all the lovely responses. They emailed today to say they weren’t going to let us know the results of the interview until Monday or Tuesday. So more waiting and more time to think!

£8K reduction probably equates to £450 per month reduction in actual terms.

I'd say that was well worth it for the loss of stress and frustration. It also gives you exposure to a new team and different part of the business. Time to start afresh. More diversity on your CV

fingers crossed for a positive outcome!

I would be loath to be demoted, but given they have had two years to support you and have failed, I think you should consider leaving. Your countersigning manager is now getting involved because they realise you have been compensating for a weak manager and you leaving will make their life more difficult. I’m not sure I would trust them to do more than make the right noises until you turn down the other job. The only reason for persisting would be if you think you could never get promoted back to your current grade which is probably unlikely as you secured an interview so quickly. I no longer manage a team, but on the whole everyone was high performing and all but one left on well deserved promotions; I got promoted into a niche specialist role.

I’ve been in a similar situation before OP. They are panicking because you have been solving a problem for them in terms of looking after the grot and keeping the show on the road. However - past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour, guarantee within 6 months you’ll be looking to get out again because they will not follow through.

I would have (and did) looked for a same pay job tho - I think the fact you’re willing for even consider a demotion and pay cut is very telling in terms of exactly how awful your situation is. If you can afford it I’d go for it.