Take demotion offered, challenge process, resign - what would you do?

[PurplePenguin314]

DP unexpectedly had a protected conversation at work with his line manager - no advance warning this was going to happen. He had been put on an informal support plan and all of the targets were met, which his line manager acknowledged. Despite this, DP has been told he can either face capability or accept a much more junior role. DP feels he has been treated unfairly.

Would you challenge the process if you felt you were being treated unfairly, but risk losing your job altogether and have to declare capability proceedings in future job applications? Or would you take demotion or resign?

Finding a new job won't be easy for DP, as there aren't many at the same level round where we live.

If you've experienced capability proceedings at work, what was the outcome and have you had success in finding a new job?

I think I would have a chat to acas just to understand the situation with a view to accepting the more junior job and job hunting like crazy. It’s a hard job market at the moment, Im not sure i would want to walk. Thats just my gut feeling about what I would do, Im not suggesting it’s the only way forward.

I would take the demotion and start searching for a new job.

Realistically if he has had an informal support plan in place and they still feel he needs to be demoted, it is unlikely a challenge will go anywhere.

As pp has said, it’s a very tough market. ACAS is a good shout, but ime as a manager, companies can get the outcome they want and such cases are unlikely to fall in the employee’s favour.

How long has he been employed by them?

You mention targets OP, are they support plan targets or business goals ( like sales or production targets )?

If it’s the former maybe the business realise the targets were too easy and that DP still isn’t the right fit in the role.

How did DP get the role, was it internal promotions , did he come straight in from outside, was he asked to step up temporarily but it became permanent over time, was he looked after by a particular manager who’s since left and it’s become obvious DP had shortcomings .

He needs access from ACAS but I would say it is obvious they just want him gone.

If I was in this situation I would negotiate the best financial settlement possible.

Taking the demotion does not mean he would be able to stay in that job for long either and everything would likely be made very uncomfortable for him every day...

How long has he worked there? How much of a demotion? Are they offering protected salary with the demotion?

@ByQuaintAzureWasp 8 years

@tanstaafl DP got the job from outside. Targets were like department improvement goals.

@KellsBells7 I didn't know about protected salary. Are you saying it's possible to negotiate to be paid the same as before while in a more junior role? It's a big demotion. From a senior role to one of the most junior.

Definitely talk to Acas.

I know someone who was demoted but the salary stayed the same.

@Foggytree I didn't know that was possible, thanks for sharing that. Do you know how they managed to negotiate that? Did they do it themselves or did they have a union or lawyer involved?

First tell him to join the union then speak to his local rep!

Organisations should have a pay protection policy (stay on original grade for x amount of time: varies from organisation to organisation). He needs to find out what his says. It usually applies in a restructure but in this situation it could be the basis for him to negotiate.

I assume he’s not in a union? So Acas for advice, but if he is being demoted despite achieving his improvement plan then there may be a case for constructive dismissal. The question here is, have the company followed its own policies and the law in their treatment of him. Does he have any protected characteristics?

This is what my workplace at the time did .
Presumably they sought advice from their hr consultant at the time.
So the person had no need to argue their case.

@BrunchBarBandit Thanks for letting me know about the pay protection policy. I'll ask DP to find out. DP is in a union. He's made contact and is waiting to hear back. DP does have a disability that work is aware of, but he's never asked for any adjustments for his disability at work.

Yes, I wonder about the constructive dismissal issue, but is pursuing that going to essentially set fire to any hope of DP rescuing his career?

Maintaining salary normally occurs in a reorg and an employee’s role is reduced in seniority/responsibility In the case you describe OP, if your husband has been placed on a PIP, and the outcome of that has resulted in a demotion the company is within its rights to reduce his salary and other t&c’s to that of the role he will be moving to. If the PIP process has been followed correctly your DH has unfortunately little leverage. If however, the process has not been followed then there could be some scope for negotiation.

He needs to get his union on board and follow their advice. As others have said speak to ACAS but union will probably provide same advice as they follow same framework.

Pay protection is unlikely in this case if the reason is due to him not performing. Pay protection is usually due to restructuring or events outside the control of postholder that employer are responsible for.

Why are they suggesting demotion if they agreed he is performing? What is the reason they want to demote him?

Just to go back to the plan.
So he had targets on the plan.
He hit those targets.
They said 'you might still get demoted etc'
Presumably he said 'Can you please explain why, when I've hit targets and therefore have passed the plan?'
What was the exact response from his manager to him asking why his job would still be at risk despite neeting the targets set? And is that in writing?

Companies are getting up to all sorts to demote people and use them as cheaper commodities to save a few bucks. If your DH passed the informal PIP then that should be the end of it! Me and a colleague were put on PIPs when new management came in. In hindsight it looks like they were trying to demote us as my colleague got shown JD of the level below and being gaslit she couldn’t do her job! Anyway my colleague put in a grievance and got a payout. I decided to beat the PIP but my new manager didn’t know what the hell they were doing and didn’t check in, couldn’t give me good examples of what I was doing wrong where before holiday they said they were going to pass me as successful but when they came back I’d failed it because small escalations came up where they said I hadn’t followed through (which I had but it’s amazing how much they will ignore this if they want). I had a capability meeting scheduled and I asked for concrete examples why I’d failed. Mentors were telling me to put in grievances which I wished I’d done. With the examples I’d given for capability I had good reasons for rebutting them. Before I’d gone into the capability meeting I’d complained about how badly the PIP was managed and HR explained what should have happened. I took a colleague into the capability and I think they were surprised it was a peer and I don’t think HR and my manager wanted my colleague to hear what silly examples they had on me as they know my colleague is smart and they wanted to keep them on side. Capability lasted 2 minutes as they said while I’d not had input on the original PIP they were going to put me on a formal PIP (they hadn’t said the original was an informal one either) with my buy in on measurable goals. My managers and my relationship broke down completely and I told them how awful they were at their job and how they were so uninspirational. I was made redundant in the end. Not due to performance apparently!!! Fast forward it gave me time to get out of that toxic place and gave me a bit of money but I got a job quickly and alive to tell the tale 9 months on. Your DH has the choice to put in a grievance if he can show his manager signed off the informal performance as passed as to go to capability is poor show! He could ask for a decent severance package or take the demotion but his head might not have the appetite for it. HR should be able to lay out what options he has and of course consult externally with ACAS and lawyer if they come to a settlement!

my job was advertised at level below and to someone in cheaper LatAm country! Apparently with only 1.5 years expertise! The company I was at is still laying people off! It’s all a big game!

You say he's been there 8 years. Has he been doing that role for 8 years or has he been promoted to it at some point?

It sounds like they've decided they want him out. Performance Improvement Plans are often the first step in managing someone out (not always of course but it seems that way here). But he's met the requirements of the plan and they still aren't happy and are talking about capability and demotion which is quite telling.

The good things are that he's been there 8 years and has passed the Improvement plan. I'm sure the union will be able to work with that. He needs to think about what his aim is - to stay in the role (sounds like that coukd be very unpleasant), take the demotion but protect his salary (might be a good bet as it gives him some breathing space to look for something else while still having the income) or try and secure an exit settlement payment to leave (risky if no job to go to but if the money is the right ball park then the risk may well pay off).

Definitely get external advice, chat to a solicitor or other external person on his side, ACAS can be very helpful, or of course the union.

I see. Sounds unlikely DP will have his pay protected then. PIP was informal, so it's been a real shock that it's gone from informal PIP where targets have been met to capability/demolition.

Good that he’s in contact with the union - they should be able to advise a sensible way forward.

I wouldn’t be inclined to take a big demotion, as I’d be concerned that it would make it more difficult to find another job at an appropriate level. But it depends on how easy it would be for him to find another job (even if it has to be somewhere between his current role and the demoted role - at least he’s not dropping back as far)

Nothing in writing. It seems like meeting the targets is not good enough. DP's line manager said that above him have lost confidence in him.