Look for another grad job or deal with a dysfunctional team?

[Sadrice]

Ds is very stressed at work...he's just started training in one of the big four in Audit. He's finding his team very difficult. He has a good people manager who has been supportive but the team/project he is working on is separate to his people manager. The project is 4 months behind and his team are stressed, snappy, don't have time to answer questions, train him etc. They are blaming him for missing deadlines and being slow when no one would explain to him what to do, no one shows up in the office but he has been told he has to go in every day and every day he sits in the office alone.
He's probably only worked 4 full weeks the rest of the time has been in college.

He's working all his spare hours after work on his exams and is doing well with them. But his "in work" days are brutal - he was crying last night at the way two of team spoke to him.
He has so little experience in dealing with this kind of situation - his confidence is starting to crumble - I'm not really sure what to advise but he's not having a great big 4 experience, he's trying to hang in there in the hope he'll move projects - I think that's unlikely given the project is so behind.

Can anyone help me advise him?

The Big 4 are brutal and not everyone suits it. They pay well for a reason.

Honestly, I gained a lot from sucking up a bad social experience in a previous workplace. The manager was a shit, the colleagues were bitchy and there were many times I cried.
HOWEVER - I learnt a fuckton, I absorbed everything. And when I was ready to leave, the experience meant getting the next role up was easy.

It doesn't suit everyone.

Has he got a coordinator or similar role? That would be the first port of call. Focus on the learning and training rather than the staff approach. He's there to learn and if he isn't then something is going wrong.

Otherwise a chat with his manager asking for some honest feedback - i.e. is it me or are the staff generally like this? Type questions.

Not everyone can do this, but I tend to focus on the bigger picture - yes it's shit right now, but in 6 months/a year or whatever, it'll lead to X (insert whatever goal is being worked towards). It helps reframe and not sweat the small stuff so much.

He should talk to his career coach immediately. Being shirty and inappropriate with junior team members will be stamped on. Do not quit - it’s just a shit project - it doesn’t have to be like that. I’ve been at Big 4 for 15+ years.

I had this but in what most would think of as a good public sector type environment. I was resented and they wouldn't pass knowledge onto me. I had to make myself unpopular and insist they worked with me, it was hard for a long time. If your husband isn't prepared to speak up to find ways to improve the situation, and I appreciate many aren't, it may be time to move on.

It’s Ds - he’s 21 - first job! That’s why I’m involved, he’s seeking advice from me - I’m torn, I don’t want him to be crushed by this - he’s working so hard, he really wants this job but he needs more support and training and he need to be able to ask questions without effectively being called stupid

Thanks his coach is good (the only good thing) he’s worried if his coach makes noises he’ll be hated even more. He’s told to ask questions and when he does they get exasperated that he doesn’t already know stuff. They’ll ask him to do a test - he’ll spot an error meaning the test is pointless - he asks for direction, they ignore his messages all day, he asks around, no one can advise and then his team shout at him for spending too long on one test. He feels like he just can’t win.

He needs to ask for a meeting with his manager, blaming a young graduate for errors in a job is unprofessional, he is there to be taught , learn on the job and assist. Of course he needs to ask questions.

i think some people forget they were once the newbie learning how it all works.

He needs to speak up. It’s a fundamental part of the culture in any accounting based / regulated firm. It will be tricky I know that but he’s not going to be thrown under the bus - it’s the team that’s screwing up not him.

They will have a “speak up“ line he could call if you wanted to talk to someone completely independent about what to do.

When did he start the job? I’m guessing this Sept?? You said he’s only actually done 4 full weeks of work so far? If yes, it’s very early days. As a previous poster said, the Big 4 can be brutal and more so if you’re in a project team that are clearly in the shit right. No-one is going to be at their best in that situation as everyone is under huge pressure. He may not be the only one crying at home in the evening!

It may not feel like it at the moment but this is a huge learning opportunity for him. Quite often the best way of learning is by experiencing how things shouldn’t be done and being completely in the shit. Not fun at the time but OMG you learn fast and those lessons will make you so much better at your job in future (even if you don’t appreciate it at the time).

I started out as a grad in Big 4 Audit. It was a long time ago but it was foundational for me. Would I want to do it again? Hell no! There were some utterly miserable moments and I also found it incredibly lonely as I had zero support (my assigned coach/mentor was clearly marked as on his way out the door and he had zero interest in interacting with me). First job as a grad is almost always a shock to the system. A full-on job is a bigger shock. A full-on job that also comes with professional exams that you must pass to keep your job is huge pressure. It’s not for everyone. We were told that we should be studying 30 hours/week on top of our full time client work. Some of the client work was intense. On one client (big name multinational) we were told that the only person who gets Saturdays off is the manager because he was Jewish (!). On another client I had to stay on my own in a dodgy B&B Mon-Fri in a not very nice small town and had to battle through protesters at the gates to the client’s office every morning. I could go on and on as there are plenty of horror stories. But also some incredible experiences!

I think it’s early days for your DS. I don’t want to be unsympathetic but he needs to toughen up. Be a shoulder for him to cry on but he also needs to think about what he could do differently to affect the outcomes. Because ultimately the lesson he’s learning right now is that it’s all about the outcomes. No-one is going to hold his hand (unless he’s very lucky). It’s sink or swim.

For example, he finds a problem with the test so the test is no longer valid/meaningful but he doesn’t get timely direction on next steps from his wider team. Maybe in their eyes he wastes an afternoon doing nothing whereas in his eyes he’s stuck and waiting for them to respond/direct him. So when he finally speaks with them (or is being shouted at), he needs to say that he raised it to them immediately and needed a decision/direction as he was blocked, and going forward what is the best way of communicating this to them so he doesn’t lose time (but he knows how busy they are). Ask them what he could have done differently to be more effective. He needs to work out the best way of working with them. That might be he has a quick 10 min call/checkpoint with them at 1pm every day, or when he emails them he makes it clear in the title that it’s URGENT: RESPONSE REQUIRED ASAP or BLOCKER IDENTIFIED. This is all pretty basic stuff when you’ve been working for a while and his team probably don’t even realise that this may all be new to him.

He will have worked hard to be accepted as a grad in the Big 4. Don’t throw it away so soon. Give it at least a year (and get through the first set of exams) and then see how he’s feeling.

Failing that, remind him of the great Victor Hugo quote from Les Miserables:

Even the darkest night will end and the sun will rise

He will have a talent coach at Kaplan/BPP/First Intuition who will be able to give him advice as an independent advisor. Similarly his tutor from his AF & ARF exams which he sat last month or possibly his latest papers (BIP or PTX).

His people manager is likely to have been in the same position 2 or 3 years ago and will understand. If any first year Big 4 trainee ever says it was all smiles & unicorns they are lying.

There will be a senior responsible for the audit fieldwork on the ground reporting into an audit manager. Your DS should ask the senior to explain exactly what they want him to do for each task, repeat it back and then ask what the anonomolies may be & what he should do in each case. He should also check last year's files for the same tests.

He should have a buddy in the year ahead. Try to speak to them today or tomorrow as they are likely to be heading to college for their revision courses starting on Monday. They should be able to explain the tasks and reassure your DS that things will get better. If it's only his first audit he hasn't had chance to put what he has learned into action on another job yet. 95% are clueless at this stage.

Also he will be assigned to a new job very soon as the Dec year ends will all be starting. He won't be working with the same people all the time.

It depends a lot on the team and people you work with; sadly audit is not the best and they put a lot of pressure on the trainees.

What is the likelihood of he getting another graduate job? Move to a different team? Can he hang in there a bit longer? Not take things personally? Do what he can? If it is becoming too much then he will have to quit. I know someone in similar situation who did. He lasted a month I think.

I left a big 4 due to burnout and politics. I was a manager though with lots of experience in industry. Got another job in industry. I don’t think I could put up with all the corporate sxxx any more, plus politics, unfair treatment, etc. I should have moved earlier.

It depends a lot on the team and people you work with; sadly audit is not the best and they put a lot of pressure on the trainees.

What is the likelihood of he getting another graduate job? Move to a different team? Can he hang in there a bit longer? Not take things personally? Do what he can? If it is becoming too much then he will have to quit. I know someone in similar situation who did. He lasted a month I think.

I left a big 4 due to burnout and politics. I was a manager though with lots of experience in industry. Got another job in industry. I don’t think I could put up with all the corporate sxxx any more, plus politics, unfair treatment, etc. I should have moved earlier.

Maybe he should quit before they damage him more, impact his confidence, etc. These companies put all pressure on juniors and blame and provide no support. It is a horrible atmosphere and audit is not great.

I’d be wary of quitting so soon as it may make it difficult for him to find another grad job. The grad market is already so competitive and some employers will question whether he has ‘staying power’ if he quits only a few months in. That question over him will easily be enough for them to hesitate and go with another candidate to be on the safe side.

@Sadrice dropped you a PM

Absolutely not. He is 4 weeks in. These jobs are like hens teeth. Audit is hard work for sure but it’s worth persevering not falling at the first fence.

A department in my company did exactly this to a new hire. He was expected to come in every day during probation when nobody else was, he was completely alone. He left before the 6 months and from his exit interview apparently detailed how unsupported he was. From my own experience with that dept I can believe it. Hard as it is at the moment best bet is for him to move on and find something else before it breaks him. I’m sorry about the situation, it’s really unfair and short sighted of his employer x

You son is clearly intelligent and driven and he won’t have got that job easily. I’m not surprised he’s fed up being treated so badly. It must be so disappointing for him.
Is there anyway he could ask to move to a different department. Even if it’s unlikely while the current project is underway he should be planning his escape now. What about changing tack completely and moving away from auditing to something else. It’s not unheard of to switch.

He should probably document his poor treatment.

When he requires guidance does he only ask in person? Might he benefit from being more strategic. Asking for info/help in emails. Copying in managers etc. Is he clear that he needs help.

Thanks all. I showed him your comments and he found them very useful.

On reflection I think there are two sides to this.

He's worked every available hour studying for the 2 exams coming up - putting the two exams back to back has really piled the pressure on and he's responding by working every spare second.

He's not recovering from long study hours to deal with the work demands from the team - and will not work overtime to catch up with workload because he's been strongly advised not to - and if he fails his exams there is a cascade of misery where he falls behind and two fails and he's sacked!

He's worried about letting his manager down and not getting the work done, he'll update on a daily basis to ensure this isn't a shock - there's always the chance he'll get it done without support (not ideal but we are where we are!)

He needs to take in more air - he needs to take breaks, have an evening off, exercise and he needs to speak to his line manager about resolving the lack of support if possible.

For all of you who offered tips, he's gratefully taken them on board. He's not beaten but given the way he was last night, he knows he now needs to take more care of his mental health and work on adopting a healthier mindset if he's to get through this.

He's got two weeks off over Christmas (as long as he doesn't fail an exam) he'll reassess where he's at then.

Thanks again!😮‍💨

Is he out on client site? If so then make sure he’s out and talking to the client. If they’re an old hand (as many are) they may have sympathy and take a little time to take him through things. I know I have done so on the quiet when it’s clear the wider team are falling apart. It’s a tough gig and yes, the exam pressure is insane. But it certainly opens a lot of career options if he can stick the three years. I cried during my first few years. More than once. Still glad I did it.

I’ll try and say this gently @Sadrice but I find your reply (or rather, the feedback from your DS) a little concerning.

He seems to be prioritising studying for his exams over his actual project work?? If this is what he’s doing, he’s making a horrible mistake. He’s not at uni now. Client / project work comes first, before all else! Not getting his client work done (regardless of reason) doesn’t just impact him. It impacts his team, potentially the client and most importantly the reputation of the firm he’s working for. Reputation comes before everything! This is non-negotiable.

He needs to balance his exam study requirements with his client work rather than the other way round. Yes it’s hard and yes it means he will be working AND studying long hours with very few breaks (if any!) That’s the nature of what he signed up for. If he can’t cope already then maybe this really isn’t the right job for him. The first year is the easiest. Second and third years are much much harder as the exams intensify at the same time as he will be given more responsibility on client work. If he is already struggling, he absolutely should not be taking 2 weeks off over Christmas but he should be using some of this time to study instead.

I appreciate that you may think this sounds harsh but this is the reality of being a grad in Audit in the Big Four. You work long hours (unless you’re lucky) AND you study long hours. You don’t get to pick and choose which you prefer.

Again thank you for taking the time to reply. He has been told repeatedly by other colleagues who have successfully got through the three years to prioritise his exams, to learn to say no to extra work, to leave at 5pm.
I think if life is typically as you describe for grads in big 4 audit, it isn’t for him and he would be the first to acknowledge it. He keeps asking the question - what should I expect? Is this what life is supposed to be like here or am I having a particularly rough time with a shit team. I appreciate your honesty - there’s not a lot of it, there’s a lot of bullshit about work-balance and how important it is coming from HR and the partners. The reality seems quite different.

It's not simple to just switch between the big 4

suggest he starts to upward manage. Manage expectations of those giving him work. Yes I can do that but it will be x hours. Or x days. I'm not sure that turnaround time will be achievable, is there any more resource we can add in

can he look into switching to a different service line

it would be a shame to quit so soon

he has set working hours. Yes a bit of overtime but if it's routinely to 9pm just say this isn't sustainable for me. I've been flexible but I now need to step back and focus on my core hours

he needs to learn ti stand up for himself. I wonder if you have done a lot of speaking up for him in his life so far and he doesn't have the resilience or confidence he needs in adult situations

When he spots an error meaning the test is pointless - does he mean the sample he has chosen does not comply (that is a result, albeit the audit has thrown up a failing. He needs to keep going to prove it) or that the test itself is pointless? (which is surprising as generally those audit tests are pretty tried and tested - but he could be onto something applying generic tests to specific clients - if so, that needs escalated and he moves on with something else in the meantime)

Is he allowed to use Co-Pilot or whatever AI system the Audit firm endorses for use? A few well worded prompts might clarify things for him on the tasks at hand.

I'm not quite sure of the technicalities but his manager after initially trying to ignore his findings but finally agreeing is wasn't right, it meant that he's had to go get more info for the test from the client but all this means is that he's taking longer to do the test - his task isn't getting finished and he looks worse because he's not completing the tests quickly enough. He thinks the other people in the team are not going into as much detail as he is (he thinks he's maybe going into too much detail), making him quite a bit slower. He thinks they are skimming over tests to get through them quickly and he doesn't feel experienced enough to do this and if challenged he couldn't defend his decision. That's the gist of what he has told me.

Edited to say - they can use AI and he relies on it heavily because he's not getting support elsewhere.

What makes it more tricky is that whilst other grads have moved around projects getting to know the wider team, he has stayed in the same one - so he hasn't been able to build a network of people he could ask, who are actually in the office.