Stage 1 capability meeting

[Howdidigetintothismess]

Hi have one of these coming up. I know I’m being managed out but wanted to know my options. I don’t really want to have a warning on my record though I can’t see it would go this far and not get a warning. Money is tight so while my husband has said we’d cope if I resigned I’m not sure how we can so have been hanging on as long as possibly . Jobs have been scarcer recently so not seen much in my line of work. I cannot think of anything else and I’m so fed up. Can’t sleep and over compensating now at work. Have tried so hard to retain business focus. Has anyone ever NOT got a warning after capability or turned it around at the next PIP. I don’t have much strength. If I can’t turn it around in 2 months what is going to change.

Can I ask - you don't deny there is a performance issue. So is it correct to assume there is? Why can't you turn it around? How long have you worked there, and assuming it's more than a couple of months, what has changed that has caused your performance to drop?

In answer directly to your questions though, yes, it is very rare that the whole thing is dropped at this stage (although that is why I am asking about the above detail) but people do turn things around. In my experience it's usually about 50/50. It's by no means a foregone conclusion, but it will be if you "give up" and it sounds like that is the direction you are going in. As a manager my question would have been why? You obviously haven't been underperforming previously - so one assumes they were happy with your performance in the past.

We all have things to improve on but I have a new manager who does not know my line of work, doesn’t listen to my point of view and seems to blame me for things I can’t control. I’m at a loss on how to counter the claims as they are not specific There is restructuring going on soon and I’ve been actively kept out of discussions. One colleague mysteriously vanished when they didn’t seem to be looking to leave and I have had no issues with prior managers. My manager requested feedback from my team and when I asked to see it in prep for the meeting, the feedback was well just because a manager is popular doesn’t meant to say they are performing (still no sign of it). So all of this is my managers point of view only and not taking it all in context of the sum of the whole. We have a personality clash and I don’t think I can continue to work for someone who doesn’t give me a safe space for discussion as everything I do or say is twisted into their narrative. I had a 1 to 1 and it was clear this will end up in a warning. Been there nearly 3 years. Been in a PIP for 2 month so if can’t turn the ‘perception’ which is what it is in that time, how can I do it in a month? Manager is typical OCD micromanager whereas I put issues in context and deal with the most important ones first. My manager seems to have expectations that I should be a mind reader on. When I ask for support or suggestions I get nothing. Similar complaints from others but they are not in the same predicament as me!

Document everything and see the process through. Call ACAS for advice.

Ah ok - have you posted about this before because it sounds familiar, but then they often do! Sorry but in terms of what you are describing yes, you are correct - very little can be done to prevent the inevitable. They have set a course of action and will see it through. I don't want to be a doom-monger, but I think you know that already. Unfortunately it is exceedingly difficult to show unfair dismissal in these circumstances - a tribunal is not allowed to re-assess and employers judgement on performance because how ell someone performs is only a matter that the employer could judge. So as long as they get the process right, it's usually a slam dunk I'm sorry to say.

I know you don't want to resign, and I would never encourage you to. And I am assuming you don't have a union? So if you were my member, this is what I would be arguing with you. You have probably 2-3 months (including notice period?) within this whole scenario, then you are out of work with no job and a reference that may well say you were dismissed for poor performance. If that is your option (and you are going to have to do some bluffing because you don't have me or a "me clone" in the room) tell them that you have taken legal advice, but that you really would rather not go down the advised legal route as it is all too stressful (and do not rise to them asking what that advice said - smile knowingly like you know something they don't) so you were thinking that four / five months pay in lieu of notice (basically start at your notice period plus three months) and an agreed good reference would be enough to get a mutally agreed termination. A good reference is worth money in the bank so that isn't negotiable. Be prepared to haggle, but honestly, if you get anything more than your notice period you've done good and snatch their hands off (but don't let them know you are happy with it!).

CantHoldMeDown is the person to listen to here.

A PIP is a tool, but ultimate goal should always be to see improvement for the business needs.
They need to give you very clear and measurable targets to hit. Have you got these?

I think I was very clear it wasn't. But in scenarios such as this the law is seldom relevant - how well you can negotiate is. Just because they think they have spotted it doesn't mean they will be willing to test it. There is a reason why many employers settle cases they could win before a tribunal. Damage limitation of a settlement agreement is often the pragmatic approach to not having to be in a tribunal or deal with a claim. I find it astonishing that someone in HR doesn't know all that, even if they have never been personally involved in getting rid of someone without good cause, because plenty of their peers will have.

And for those who think that PIP's are about inmprovement - they are, if the employer wants an improvement. They are also a familiar tool for managing people out, and if you read the OP then that is exactly what she is expecting, within a context in which there are clear indicators that her view is not unreasonable. She feels she is being managed out, a colleague has "mysteriously vanished", there is a restructure going on but she is excluded from discussion etc. Perhaps HR people don't read the writing on the wall - but the OP has and as a trade unionist I agree with her. Just because something should be used positively doesn't mean employers always do that. There wouldn't be any unfair dismissals if employers always did what they should do.

Well "sweetheart" I can't outdo you in your patronising approach which is just so very typical of so-called HR professionals. It's lovely for you that you have managed to defend your employers so well, which is, after all, the job of HR - to do the employers bidding to protect the employer.

40 years of trade union representation across multiple employers, and I don't have enough fingers and toes to tell you how many times employers have settled - often on the advice of their legal teams and insurers who know the cost entailed in claims even if they haven't royally screwed up. And "royally screwed up" happens so very often, which is why there are tribunals.

Of course, as you say, we have to accept that people tell us their version of the truth. You are telling yours, and I have no idea if you have ever set foot in an HR office. You have no idea about me. But I am going to assume that the OP is neither stupid nor untruthful, and knows when her managers and HR are trying to force her out of her job. Sweetheart.

Let me guess- trade union rep?

I am looking for practical solutions no matter the background - whether HR or trade union. I have joined a trade union in case goes to second capability and which it will as the pip was not smart. Waiting on feedback on exactly why I failed the PIP which all of a sudden became informal despite being logged in HR system. The whole process has been handled really badly and they haven’t followed process. Hr is validating my line manager and this is not a fair process! I am asking for feedback on why I failed (expired over a month ago and have nothing in writing). I apparently have great feedback from my team but is saying it doesn’t count so it’s all about what my manager thinks
and nothing else! Personality clash pure and simple.

You are aware that the union may refuse to represent you? Most unions have rules that will not allow them to represent you on a pre-existing issue or with a certain period of joining. You may get a local lay rep if one agrees, but there is no legal or full time officer support available except in very specific circumstances. Union membership is like insurance - no real point in having it after the event, you are supposed to take it out before your house burns down.

I am a bit perplexed by the fact that they didn't continue the process immediately if you failed, and equally by the "informal" comment - it does sound very much like they have made a process error and therefore can't immeditely proceed. That might buy you some time - if this was "informal" then they need to go to stage 1, nor stage 2 (you need to check the policy but if there is no "informal" stage then you shouldn't go straight to stage 2).

The other thing that occurs to me is that they may have decided to think about offering you a settlement anyway - especially if they do have to go back to stage 1, since all of this is going to end up a lengthy process if you are correct and they want you to go.

On the positive side - although there don't appear to be any indications yet of this, if there is a restructure in the offing perhaps they have in mind a place to move you?

I am sure not everyone will like me saying this but I will say it anyway. Of course HR are validating your manager. HR are paid for by the employer. Their job is to protect the employer, and to get the employer to where the employer wants to be. If that is where the employee wants to be too, then that is a happy coincidence. But they are not and never will be on your side. They are not neutral and they are not arbiters.

Still waiting on feedback which was promised yesterday so maybe I’ve made some good points which is making them have to tread carefully. I would love a settlement if it’s decent but seems to be they are trying to save money so I doubt it. The whole process was handled badly from the start ie came out the blue, put it in HR system without any agreement from me, it wasn’t smart, tried to make it smart but still failed, let the timeline pass and doesn’t sound like she was going for to give feedback in context of PIP timeframe and frankly timeline has passed. Does anyone know if the feedback re the failed PIP should be done in writing and in the context of the conditions of the PIP. I’m concerned they are avoiding putting in writing because the process hasn’t been followed.

Did they give you a timeline as to when to expect the feedback?

There's no laws or formal rules around PIP, so technically there is nothing to say that they must do (or not do) anything, but obviously (assuming they have any sense at all) they must realise that they may have to defend it in a court of law, so I would have thought that providing writtten documentation is sensible. That said, if they are going to stick with it being "informal", provided they then enter the formal policy driven stages then not putting it is writing wouldn't be the worst faux pas. They would just claim that at an informal stage the want to encourage improvement and so aren't as rigourous as they would be otherwise.

But it's all speculation until they say or do something.

How can they show they are trying to provide a fair process and be successful they don’t feed back how you’ve failed the PIP ! And in the context of the smart (Or lack of) objectives! All a bit pants!

I agree about the feedback - even taking Christmas into account it's really poor practice. And whilst I agree in theory about the smart objectives - that is what I would want to see - that falls into a murkier area of opinion and interpretation. As I said previously, it's very hard for a tribunal (if it came to that) to interfere with the judgement of an employer on performance because they have to have the right to determine how their business is run within the law. To not following their own policy, or that policy being unfair in itself - that is easy to determine the difference between legally fair and legally unfar. But what they are measuring, that is different because it is the employers purview to decide what performance is required, and it needs to be very perverse before tribunals will interfere. Let me give you an example. You have been told that you must produce 100 round widgets every week. You say it is impossible to produce 100 round widgets every week. Unless it is exceptionally and demonstrably perverse to expect that, the tribunal will side with them. But even worse, let's say you produce 100 round widgets every week. But the employer says they aren't round enough so you haven't produced 100 round widgets, only 100 nearly round widgets. The tribunal has to accept that the employer determines what a round widget looks like - not you and definitely not them.

It is this whole area of a tribunal not overstepping that boundary and interfering in an area of judgement that belongs to the employer which makes performance issues so difficult in law. It is the reason why a lot of employers who are looking to get rid of someone but don't have clear grounds turn to performance. Even if they don't achieve managing the person out, they can make it so uncomfortable that they go anyway. I am not saying that that is definitely what they are doing. We might both be surprised, and I'd love to be for your sake.

Unless they were guilty of some gross misconduct, the fact that you had a colleague leave suddenly in mysterious circumstances suggests to me there are indeed settlement agreements knocking around.

I worked in a very large organisation where it wasn't that uncommon for people to disappear overnight - particularly more senior level people and, particularly, when there was a change of leadership. We used to call them 'the disappeared'. An email would go around saying said person had had a sudden impulse to pursue new horizons. I bumped into my own boss one day looking rather shell shocked. He said 'I think I've been disappeared'. Never saw him again.

The point about settlement agreements is that the fear of God is put into recipients about never, ever speaking of them.

If, as you suspect, you are being managed out, make sure all your actions are taken with a view to getting the best possible settlement. I will probably be flamed by an HR person but, frankly, I don't care. The only person you should think of in this situation is yourself.

Yes still no written feedback! Manager said they would send feedback on Monday but now it’s Wednesday! The policy says they will give you feedback with specific examples so that will be the next email.

I could have written this post almost word for word 12 months ago. My PIP started 08Feb 2024. I saw the writing on the wall straight away.
I failed the first stage and got feedback that was opinion based and wishy washy at best. Second stage it was clear that I was going to fail.

They then manufactured a ridiculous disciplinary for gross misconduct for having a second job- I had the second job already when I started and had told them. It suddenly became a problem 4.5 years in. Btw my second job was as an elected council member (and it's illegal to discriminate against someone for jury service or service as a council member). So that would have failed if I had taken it further.

I was also told I had taken time off sick when I was not ill despite having acute kidney failure and with all the doctors letters from the hospital to prove it. Now have permanent physical signs on my body.

Fortunately for me I had good union representation. It was utterly clear that they were trying to force me out. I had secured a new (11k year more) job with a massive career boost and I enjoyed EVERY SECOND of telling them I quit- before they could "discipline me "

What I am saying I guess, is keep true to your principles and better things will come.
It just sucks while it is happening to you

Should also have said that Occ health and GP both said I was too sick to work but they ignored this.

Interesting redkatagain. Wish I’d been so lucky to find another job in he meantime. My husband had a colleague tell him her husband had been told to sack someone even though he didn’t agree the person was doing a bad job. It played on her husband so much he would got for walk and not come back for hours!!! Bet my boss isn’t doing that of course. Had a discussion with HR about my difficulties and one of the avenues of course was a w/o prejudice discussion so subtle!