Looking for Advice From Anyone Who Works In HR

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Hi all,

I am after some advice hopefully from someone who works in HR.

My 21 year old son is at uni and also works part time in a well known food Chain.

A few months back he was taken on as a supervisor for a months trial. During that month a new manager started. To cut a long story short the new manager seems to have something against my son. She is constantly moaning at him if he gets something wrong. Instead of training him up she just has a go at him and never encourages him or shows him how he can improve. Anyway 3 months on she keeps extending his trial period.
it is getting to the point where it is getting him down working with her. She has mentioned to him a couple of tomes that she will arrange a meeting with him to discuss his progress but nothing as of yet has become of it.
He now wants to email her to request a date for the meeting.

What I would like advice on is should he first get in touch with HR to chat to them about his situation? I am a concerned that she will try and turn things round on him. I feel by talking to HR at least they will know the situation.

Any advice would be much appreciated .

Has he received all the required training to do his role?

What is he getting wrong? And has he been shown the correct way to do things?

Presume he has a probation period - has this been formally extended, giving the reason(s) and the length of the extension?

Hi Vivx,

Thanks for your reply. The first probation period was 6 weeks then extended by another two weeks because she felt he wasn't ready to run the floor alone. That was 8 weeks ago. For him to run the floor he will have to go on a first aid course that she has to send him on but has yet to do so.
She doesn’t tell him what he is doing wrong as such just moans at him. She hasn’t give him any training, the only training he has had was from when he first started his probation period. She herself has taken on other supervisors since she joined them and seems to be all for them.

Hope that helps.

A supervisor should know what they are doing. Sounds like he is making a lot of mistakes and she's addressing it. Not sure what you'd expect HR to do, although if he is in a supervisory role, I'd expect him to speak with HR himself if he needs to

He is on a probation period to become a supervisor, so is meant to be having training for the role but instead the manager moans at him if he makes mistakes but doesn’t go over his mistakes with him and explain how he can do better.

He is happy to speak with HR which is why I was asking advice, I wanted to know if he should speak with HR first before arranging a meeting with the manager.

HR's role is to maximise employee productivity and avoid legal risks.

They aren't a couselling or employee support service.

If it's a large chain there may be a counselling line and they ma be better able to offer support.

The problem is that the supervisor will be told your son has contacted HR and she is unlikely to take that well at all and it will make things worse.

I'd encourage him to realise that there are difficult people and that this isn't the oly job in the world.

To make it to supervisor in three months is generally a minimum so it may well be that there was a lack of realism in how long it takes to learn all the skills.

Traiing woujld ormally take plac ei January and not in the peak period of December.

He needs to find out what the issues are and get some clear guidance as to what he needs to do to overcome them.
It is difficult to tell whether the manager's concerns are reasonable or not from what you've put. Is it possible that he is under-performing but is downplaying the situation to you?
You say the manager "moans at him" but is she actually telling him what he is doing wrong / what he has missed / etc - even though he perceives it as "a moan"?

Has he asked why his first aid training has not been booked?

Re his probation - does his contract mention probation and the possibility of extending it and the process for doing so (the process might be given in a policy or procedure - has he got access to the staff handbook?)
If it is a chain, there's probably a formal procedure to extend probation and he might find that if they haven't done it properly that he has passed probation by default. With that said, his actual employment rights during and post-probation are pretty similar, as he's still going to have under 2yrs of service.

If his probation has been properly extended then HR would (normally) already be aware of the general situation, not least because there's normally confirmation, a tickbox or something to record the status of someone's probation on their HR record.

Does he have a direct line to call HR? I was in management in retail for YEARS and quite often stuff had to go via management, who were all 'HR trained' and managed all disciplinaries/probations etc among ourselves (terrible system now I look back!)

I'd say to be honest if she's moaning at him, she IS telling him what's wrong. It may not be a great way of coaching someone, but it's pretty common in retail and similar (again, I don't agree with it, but saw it in action 😂) ~ he needs to listen to what she's moaning about and do something about it. Often these supervisory roles are quite nuanced in you need to learn to make gut decisions and prioritise on the spot - it's not something you can get on a checklist, so talking it through when it happens is useful.

First Aid courses, at least where I was, took flipping forever to book. If it's a chain probably they're waiting on new dates to be released, not as simple as 'she should have booked this and hasn't.'

I'd be asking him if he wants to stay in the role TBH. In my experience, challenging a manager on stuff like this, in probation, in this kind of industry, only ends one way. He needs to find a way to work with her, or step back down. If she's genuinely bullying him, that's a different conversation. But I doubt she will set a meeting to sign off his probation unless she's confident he's ready - pushing it may well end in non-confirmation in the role.

Morning everyone and a very Merry Christmas to you all.

Thank you so much for your replies.

This has been going on since around Sept/Oct time. He was put on a 6 Week probation, it was extended to two weeks and her conversation was on the shop floor with no sit down one to one meeting….. I am extending your probation to two weeks as you are not ready. There was nothing else from her including any in put on where and how he can improve. So he has had to try and figure out the role for himself other than what he was trained on in the two weeks before she joined as the new manager.
The two weeks has now reached 8 weeks. He has asked when he will find out if he will be taken on as a supervisor twice and her answer is has been I need to sort a meeting out with you.

The one thing I can only think of that has caused this is when she joined and was organising the rota my son asked if he could not be put down to work any Saturdays. Now that was a big ask from my son and quite a selfish one as Saturdays is the busiest day for them. He didn’t think it through, he is at uni works there part time in the week and weekends. However when she had a go at him for requesting every Saturday off which is rightly so he went away and thought about it and realised it was very unreasonable of him to have requested that so the next time he was in he apologised to her and explained his request was unfair.
Ever since then she is very unfriendly, rude and has not given him any guidance on improving as a supervisor role.

Maybe I have got it wrong but something clearly isn't right.

To give you an example it is his role to let the manager know when they are running low on certain foods that is being cooked by the team members. He did this the one day and she snapped at him “ I know the situation leave it to me. That didn’t work out well because they then ran orders were higher on demand than she thought.
The other digs from her are petty tor example she has said to him before when he is waiting at the desk for whatever reason…, Wish I had the time to stand around.

He is going to request a meeting with her to ask about his probation but to also tell her that he is not happy with the way she speaks to him and how he feels he can not progress if he is not being shown and he ropes. Whilst he is on this probation his hourly rate remains the same as it was before his probation started. I should also mention she was brought into this branch as this particular branch was losing money. So she was brought in to help get it back on track. Since she joined she put a few others on a supervisor probation and all of those are now supervisors as those people have had the training needed including the required First Aid training.

The advice I wanted was before he requests a meeting should he contact HR to let them know the situation in case she decides to put him down and tells him again that he still isn’t ready to become a supervisor and extends his probation again.

Maybe getting in touch with HR is the wrong thing to do and maybe he should do it a different way, maybe take someone else into the meeting with him so he has a witness.

I just wanted advice from anyone who works in HR for the best route he can take with this one before requesting a meeting with her.

Wishing you all a lovely Christmas day. Xx🎄

"The advice I wanted was before he requests a meeting should he contact HR to let them know the situation in case she decides to put him down and tells him again that he still isn’t ready to become a supervisor and extends his probation again.

Maybe getting in touch with HR is the wrong thing to do and maybe he should do it a different way, maybe take someone else into the meeting with him so he has a witness."

HR will back the decision of the manager as to whether he is ready to be a supervisor or not. They will not overrule her, and his card will be marked for going over her head to HR. And he has no right at all to take anyone with him to the meeting - even if he were in a union, he isn't entitled to take a union rep with him.

His only realistic option is to prepare for the meeting, ask in what ways he is failing to meet her expectations and what she needs him to do to meet them; and then ask what support or training he will get to help him. He needs to stand on his own two feet to do that. And if he can't, it's time to look for another job or accept that he goes back to his previous role.

Thank you thats very good advice, not sure what you mean by him standing on his two feet, isn’t that what he is doing by trying to set up a meeting with her?

Can I ask do you work in HR? and that is a genuine question.

His only realistic option is to prepare for the meeting, ask in what ways he is failing to meet her expectations and what she needs him to do to meet them; and then ask what support or training he will get to help him.

I agree with all this. I was a union rep, never worked in HR.

The purpose of HR is to protect the interests of the employer. He is unlikely to get much help from HR, unless his manager is doing something against company policies. From what you say, that doesn't seem to be the case.

I interpret standing on his own two feet as doing everything for himself. Is he asking you for advice?

I don't work in HR but I did work in a well known food chain a few years back. When I had an issue with the manager I spoke to HR about it and they moved me to another nearby store where I flourished. HR will protect the business. This is not the same as protecting the manager.

It's so hard to find good staff in the food industry, OP, that I would be surprised if the HR person automatically sided with the manager unless there is good reason e.g. the mistakes are basic food hygiene, customer service or similar.

I’m not in HR, but I was once a 21 year old working part time while at University.

He should just get a different job.

HR works for the company not the employee. Generally speaking, HR "side" with the company.

It is unclear what you would be going to HR for, unless he has some clear examples of her bullying him, for example.

On the face of it, she has extended his probation and he can’t prove he can do the job competently (in her view).
And you say that she has been brought in to get the store back on track - which means they'll normally trust her judgement about poor performing staff.

HR would say this is something that should be sorted out with the manager in the first instance. Unless he has identified some sort of specific issue or grounds for some sort of grievance against the manager.

Anyway, could he pick a quiet time at the start or end of his shift to speak to her?
With all this said, this is a lot of angst for a part time student job - in his place, I'm not sure I'd bother - unless I wanted to work in hospitality long term.

Ah ok Im with but he has no clue I have asked for advice, I am just trying to look advice to pass on to him.

Thanks for your reply.

Thank you for your advice again.
It seems I have misunderstood the role of HR so I am glad I have asked on here.

It looks like he just needs to arrange a meeting during a quiet time to get feedback on how he is doing and how he can improve. It is a shame as a manager she couldn’t of been a bit more clear on how he can improve when she extended his probation instead of just telling him he isn’t ready, after all how is anyone meant to know how they can improve if they have no feed back.

The positive thing that will come from this is the fact that he is studying Business management, this will be brilliant for him on learning on how not to teach the team that work for you but instead to encourage them and support them to do their best in any role.

I’m an HR advisor. Good advice so far!

Things that don’t sit right with me:

• being told probation was being extended on the shop floor. That sort of conversation takes place privately. The manager is an idiot for holding it on the shop floor. At one of my former employers a store manager who did that was disciplined for it.
• probation being extended several times but it seems your son isn’t clear about expectations going forward. If he isn’t being given direction on how he’s underperforming and given proper objectives, this would indicate a process not being properly managed by the manager.
• the not getting your son booked on the First Aid course but others who have been promoted to supervisor after your son has - manager needs to have a good, objective reason for that. This sort of thing can be quite strong evidence of bullying. If there isn’t a sound explanation for why your son hasn’t been booked on this course, it’s open to your son to claim the manager is deliberately not booking him on to it, to impede the progress of his probation.

Has your son been given copies of all the probation paperwork and has he received written confirmation of the probation extensions?
Are the probation reviews taking place at the appropriate times?

I think requesting a copy of their probation policy and all paperwork (if your son hasn’t already been given it) is worth doing. Try and see whether the manager is following the process to the letter.

Your son could speak to HR and outline concerns. Equally grievances have been raised for a lot less in places I’ve worked but your son may not want to go down that route.

In the past I experienced a manager not managing my probation as it should be. She made it obvious she simply disliked me. It was farcical because she even said, “I can’t fault the work you do.” I realised moving on was the better option for me long term and would also cause more problems than me raising a grievance. It had taken them over 3 months to fill the vacancy when I was recruited and it took them almost 5 months to replace me!

HR's role is to maximise employee productivity and avoid legal risks.

They aren't a couselling or employee support service.

This x1000!

Is he in a union? Can he contact ACAS?

I'm a very experienced union officer. Not HR. I mean he has to deal with this (or not) without expecting help from HR or a "witness". Being also (now retired) a very senior manager, from a managers point of view, if an employee starts asking for a witness I would very quickly escalate this to "formal". That means that HR would definitely be in the room from then on, but not in a good way! For the employee anyway. Once HR are in the room and everything goes to "formal" there is little flexibility, and he might as well kiss his promotion goodbye anyway.

(I should also add that I have never been in that position because one way or another it wouldn't ever have got to this point. I'm just really explaining that when HR turn up they are not generally a help to employees - they are there to support managers)

Yes thank you I realise now that there doesn't seem to be any support for the staff but only for the managers. So unless you are a manager it is a case of shut up and put up.
I guess that is why she is treating him the way she is because she knows there is nothing he can do about it.
The answer is not for him to walk away front his job but to maybe request that she doesn’t talk to him the way she does. Another team member challenged her in that same way and stopped doing it after that.

Just to give you all an update.
My son us working today so he has decided to send an email to his manager requesting a meeting to discuss his probation and going forward.
His email is polite and sensible so hopefully she will answer in a positive manner.

I will keep you updated.

My son called me in his break today to update me.
Although he sent his manager the email she read had it but didn’t reply. So when he went into work he was hoping she would want a chat with him about his probation but she never even mentioned it.
When her shift was over and she was leaving he asked her if she had read his email.
She rolled her eyes and tutted at him. He said he would just like to discuss his probation which is two months over due. She told him his probation ended weeks ago. He was shocked at this as she had not even mentioned this until now, bearing in mind he is still on the hourly rate he was as on before he started his probation as floor staff not that of a supervisor.
She said she is sick of coming in and having to do everything, he said let me do it, show me what you want me to do. He requested to do a shift by himself which is what a supervisors role is. She just raised her voice at him and said fine but you had better not do anything wrong.
He mentioned the first aid course he is meant to do before running a shift alone, she said fine i can organise that easily.
He asked what his next step is from here and she replied with upu need a review. He asked when that would be, again she raised her voice and said I don’t know.

Ir is coming to my attention just how unprofessional this manager is and I honestly don’t think he stands a chance of getting anywhere with such an unprofessional manager.

Thanks for the update. I think you are right that he won't get anywhere with that manager. He really would be better off getting another job.

Morning,

Well there is another update because the manager emailed my son later yesterday a few hours after she had left.
She was completely different with him.
she said she is giving him two dates where he will run the floor by himself whilst she goes upstairs. She also said if he wants to go in today on his day off she will do his review.
Fingers crossed she has realised how unprofessional she has been and is going to go down the correct path with his probation.

This person sounds like a bully. I would go to HR.