Sensitive issue: miscarriages

[catinshorts]

I'm aware of how sensitive and triggering this enquiry may seem but I'm wondering whether anyone can offer any insight. I'm a single woman with no children and no personal experience of this situation and I'm concerned that all the mothers in HR will glower at me for raising this.

I manage several small teams, each of which has its own manager who reports to me. One of these managers has raised concerns about an employee who's been with us for just short of 21 months and in that time has had four miscarriages and has taken a combination of sick leave and bereavement leave each time.

Most recently last month she miscarried on the last day of her holiday abroad, was unable to fly back as planned and eventually returned to work after eight working days. Her manager reports that colleagues screenshot social media images of her out drinking and sunbathing, apparently still abroad in Turkey during a second week there. Those pictures have since been removed from social media. Her colleagues believe she is faking. They say she said a couple of times prior to going away that she and her partner had booked a fortnight's holiday when it was known she'd only booked a week's leave from work. When picked up about it she said it was a slip of the tongue and they were only going for a week.

After the second miscarriage and bereavement leave around this time last year HR invited her to attend a meeting for a welfare/ return check. The company offers counselling after a bereavement. Her manager can find no evidence that she attended a meeting or that HR followed up. Her performance has been just about good enough. In other circumstances she would probably have been put on a PIP but the fact that she has been multiply bereaved has complicated the situation.

Her manager is unsure what to do and has handed the problem to me. My instinct is to invoke HR on the basis of sick leave and concerns from colleagues and let them deal with it. Is this the best strategy?

Definitely get HR on it but I think miscarriage sick leave is covered by pregnancy sickness which is counted in a different way.

Anyone lying about miscarriage is disgusting. If that’s what’s going on I hope it’s dealt with asap.

Agree with this poster.

However I'd also add, as someone who has suffered multiple miscarriages (I had 3 in 12 months and others around it too), that I coped with them all in different ways. And one way I coped was by drowning my sorrows. It was my 3rd miscarriage and I posted photos on social media of my drinks in a way to say 'hey, I'm having fun, I'm fine' when actually I absolutely wasn't. No friends knew I'd miscarried then, I think I posted more to convince myself I was fine, even though I was in pieces; outwardly it looked like I was enjoying myself. So I'd be mindful that everyone copes in different ways, every miscarriage is different and not all of what is seen online is accurate.

As the poster above though, I do really hope the employee isn't lying to pull a fast one. That's absolutely disgusting.

HR here and recurrent miscarriage sufferer.

You will find it very difficult to prove it if she is faking. People don’t always seek medical assistance for a miscarriage. It’s not always treated in hospital. I sat in the garden drinking wine for 2 weeks during one of mine. I don’t think I could have got through those two weeks if I hadn’t. If someone had commented on that … let’s just say I would have had a diabolical reaction. However - I wasn’t posting on Facebook pretending to live my best life, but for people who don’t know (my dickhead landlord who decided to come round every day during that period for example) it might have looked like I was having a nice time. People deal with things in different ways. My performance certainly took a hit when I was having miscarriages every few weeks - I had 3 in 14 months. 4 in 21 months doesn’t sound far fetched to me.

That said - I was signed off while I was drinking in the garden. If she was off for 8 working days then she needs a fit note to cover anything beyond the first 5. She can get this backdated from her GP. You need a copy of the fit note and she needs to provide it to cover anything outside of self certified period. It’s not discriminatory to ask for this. It’s a standard requirement.

If she can’t get a fit note (unlikely) and she hasn’t had medical attention then asking her to prove it is going to be difficult - and if you are wrong then quite rightly she would potentially have an equality act claim. Absence due to miscarriage is recorded separately as maternity absence and any form of disciplinary action on the grounds of absence due to this is likely to be maternity discrimination.

HR could get in touch but if it was anything beyond a wellness check I would be very surprised. This is definitely one for HR though as any misstep by her line manager - or you - could have legal consequences so pass this one on to HR.

Another thing to note is that as her line manager and even her manager’s manager neither of you have the right to know anything beyond what the employee tells you. If she’s asked HR to keep it confidential they will do. You don’t have any rights to know about the medical history of your team member. They have a right under GDPR to keep this confidential.

I have also drowned my sorrows after multiple miscarriages. People present themselves differently in social media, so I wouldn’t take too much notice of that.

I don’t think you can force someone to go to bereavement counselling, it’s not something I would have wanted to do, people cope with loss differently.

HR will be your best port of call as they will know more than people on here the legality and your company policy. You can put someone on a PIP if their performance is lacking, and you should make that person aware of their manager thinks they are underperforming.

The last thing I wanted to do was go to bereavement counselling and talk to a stranger about it. I talked to my friends, was open with colleagues and I listened to a lot of Slayer and Anthrax. It’s very individual.

I wouldn’t put her on a PIP without involvement from HR. If her performance is dipping due to recurrent miscarriage there are mental health implications etc and the equality act will definitely apply here. If you have a performance conversation I would make this very very informal, very sympathetic, and present it as checking on her wellbeing and seeing if she needs anything from her managers to support her work. She should be having regular 1 to 1s so her manager should be checking in on her from a wellbeing perspective anyway.

I got caught up in a pp’s mention of PIP, but then I realise from your post it doesn’t look like there are performance issues, just a concern about absence.

If her performance has been just about good enough, then I’m not sure what performance issues you’d be asking HR about.

I'd like to think no one would be that awful, but I've had a colleague on my team fake a couple of miscarriages (bragged about it to another colleague as an easy way to get time off as no one asks questions!) ~ definitely make sure HR is involved in anything you do/say as people who fake stuff like that will start making accusations immediately if they feel the lie is threatened.

On the flip side, what others have said is absolutely correct and drowning your sorrows/trying to maintain a positive persona so people don't worry about you seems common, so bear that in mind.

Most private companies that I know will only pay for 5 days a year sick pay - anything more than you might take them off work but you wouldn't be paid for it.
Public sector employees ( I now work in eduction) can be paid but it's totally at the discretion of their manager/the head. More than 6 days off year would require meetings and proof if the sick person was to be paid.
I don't what know sector you are in OP, but surely there is company policy for this sort of thing. Speak to HR

I’ve worked in the private, charity and public sector and never worked anywhere that hasn’t paid for at least 6 months sick pay (in a rolling 12 months). The only time I’ve come across the 6 day policy as a flag for investigation was in education and legal firms (the legal firms were even tighter actually!). The rest of the places I’ve worked used either Bradford factor or 3 strikes. I’m currently public sector and our big flag is 1 day Monday and Friday absence. We don’t have a limit on days though. I think it’s very individual to each organisation.

DH and some of his friends are private sector and have unlimited sick days and no investigation flags.

Its moot though because pregnancy sickness is recorded differently so the 6 day rule your organisation has wouldn’t apply.

I hope she’s not faking. Bad karma and extremely bad taste.

I knew someone who pretended their mum had a heart attack to get out of work. She then posted photos of herself out clubbing in London having a jolly time, found out from another colleague that she was laughing about how she’d made it all up and her mum was in Wales and totally fine.

Very hard to call someone out on this. Tread carefully.

@JumpstartMondays , thank you very much. I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Yes, I'm starting from a position that it's perfectly possible for her to have had four miscarriages in 21 months and that she was entitled to recover while drinking and sunbathing. We'll never know whether she's genuine or not. All her miscarriages have occurred out of working hours and her LM and I understand that we have no right to know or ask for medical details or proof. I'm going to bump it up to HR because it's a potential minefield.

@LittleRedRidingHoody in a perverse kind of way it's quite useful to know that this kind of thing does occasionally happen. Not that that gets us anywhere, obviously, but it does help assuage the concern that her colleagues have got everything wrong.

The LM doesn't know this yet, but in the new year we're introducing more AI and will be looking to remove at least one member of this team. On performance alone there's an obvious candidate — but of course we can't really judge her on performance because she has had so many bereavements in so short a space of time. But it would be really, really unfair to let anyone else in that team go.

To clarify, I think if she hadn't had all these bereavements then she would almost certainly be on a PIP. But whenever her LM has raised concerns about performance the employee has talked about her miscarriages and the effect they've had on her and, as someone else indicated, it tends to shut people up. No one wants to cause offence or start putting pressure on someone who's suffered a bereavement.

Oh, and to the poster who talked about forcing her to attend bereavement counselling, no one was going to force her to do anything, it is just an option that's offered.

What @AllThePotatoesAreSingingJingleBells said. Every word.

Don't do anything yourself. If you feel something needs looming into then oss to HR.

This is a really difficult situation that I would definitely bump to HR as it’s so complicated. It’s perfectly possible for her to have had so many miscarriages. I had 3 in 23 months and one of those losses was at 20 weeks so if she’s had 4 early miscarriages 21 months is more than enough time for that to happen.

I certainly hope she’s not faking as it’s in really poor taste but drinking and posts on social media don’t prove anything and I would be very very careful about mentioning that. I had a bottle of wine the day I found out my baby had no heartbeat at the 12 week scan. I provided a note from the hospital and GP after my 20 week loss and I would have gone nuclear if my work had suggested I was lying about my miscarriages during the worst time of my life so do be mindful how this will be taken if she is telling the truth.

If someone had had that much absence in 21 months, I don't think I'd be risking taking them past 2 years of employment. Def one to bounce back to HR. A lot of absence in that space of time is a massive red flag - and as a small business owner, I'd be clocking that she's trying for a baby, having issues and could end up needing a lot more time off so in a team where one had to go, she'd be it. Otherwise you could end up 2 staff down.

Loads of private companies pay at least 3 months sick leave at full pay.
Many retail sector pay 3 months.

I have friends who work in financial, tech and pharmacy sectors and they all get 6 months full pay.

Luckily they’ve got an HR team there to bounce attitudes like yours back to the 50s, where they belong.

Before they end up at a tribunal.

It may be that your company use a contracted occupational health service by which it is up to them to make a reasonable recommendation to HR about managing her absence with the medical background. At the end of the day HRs role will be to find a balance between the interests of the business and duty of care to her as an employee. They will likely want to start some sort of supportive attendance management plan, put in place any reasonable adjustments like home working/part time working etc. The organisation will need to answer to it's reasonableness in any adjustments and supportiveness throughout an agreed period of time.

I’m guessing some of her colleagues are wondering why she would risk flying during her first trimester when she’s had previous miscarriages.

Occupational health is there to suggest reasonable adjustments.

What reasonable adjustments do you think there are for recurrent miscarriage? Occupational health aren’t going to make any recommendations for absence due to this.

HR won’t refer this to occupational health on the basis of recurrent miscarriage. They might refer for any mental health impact, but there needs to be a mental health impact to refer for. The absences aren’t due to stress. They are due to miscarriage.

Because life doesn’t go on hold? I miscarried on a train once on the way to Edinburgh. Should I have stayed at home in my room in case something bad happened?

A good manager would be telling the other colleagues to mind their own bloody business And maybe to be bloody grateful they aren’t going through this.

This is a good thread actually. It exposes all the things that women experiencing miscarriage worry that other people are saying about them, especially their work mates. I’m surprised no one has been along yet to suggest that it’s just a bad period so we should pull ourselves together.

If only people could show a little compassion and kindness to the people they are working alongside, who are probably having the worst months of their lives.

I agree, I found out I was pregnant following three losses the week before I was due to go on a two week holiday. I still went as we would have lost a lot of money if we didn’t and I wanted my son to enjoy his holiday.

I think some people commenting have never experienced recurrent miscarriages so find it difficult to put themselves in those shoes but some of the responses really do show a lack of compassion. What if this person is genuine.

Exactly. We aren’t getting into the next pregnancy planning to miscarry. Why would we sit at home waiting for it? X

That entirely depends on the role she's doing and what her duties are and how she feels most comfortable working. It's about making her feel comfortable, and capable in her role, taking away duties if needed.

OP you haven't said how long she was off for each time, days/weeks/months?
Aside from the holiday one which sounds a bit suspicious (and reminds me never to have colleagues on my social media) what has she done wrong? Kept trying for a baby?
OP also seems to think a miscarriage is something that happens on a day (eg that they haven't happened on a working day) they are usually drawn out over a period of time and involve finding out through scans that your embryo is no longer developing.