Flexible working request denied, no alternative offered....where do I stand?

[CoolWasp]

I have a 5 month baby boy and am planning to return to work when he is 9 months. I also have a 3yr old.

I worked 4 days a week after dc1. I submitted a flexible working request last month and had a meeting a few days ago to discuss outcome: I had proposed dropping down to 2 days, which just got rejected, with no opportunity to discuss to see if we could make something work. I then asked about 3 days I was told no, that they wanted me to return 4 days, which is what I was doing anyway.

Im not upset that my 2 days got denied- it was ambitious asking for it in my line of work and their reasons were fair. Im more upset that there was no leeway, no discussion on maybe 3 days or compressed hours. I had even asked them in the meeting if they could suggest an alternative working pattern.

Feeling down about it. Wondering if I should appeal or leave it. Its hard to look for another job as this employer offers lots of perks and has always been flexible around nursery/school drop offs and pickup times.

I remember my flex working meeting during my first mat leave: I had proposed working 3 days and they had said no, but they suggested me doing 4 instead. I accepted. But this time, it felt there was no room for discussing.

Any advice appreciated. I thought appeals were for if people werent happy that their request was rejected. I understand why mine was rejected but I would have accepted 3 days tbh xxx

I think you also have to take into consideration that they have said no and you don’t sound as if you have appeal grounds which means a new request and you can only do two requests in a year.

It’s normal to have an informal meeting beforehand so your employer or manager isn’t blindsided and that’s when you can discuss what you want and what is realistic. Did you do that? If not, do it now and then you can see whether it’s worth putting in another request or not.

I’d think about 5 shorter days. I’ve done the same and it means I’m there to respond to work things daily and it has been so useful now DC are at school. So the work life balance is good with this pattern once you have school aged children

Your employer doesn’t need to offer an alternative or negotiate with you. There is no obligation for them to do this.

Did you propose how your reduction in working days to 2 days could be managed or mitigated without increasing workload on others / hiring more staff and doing extra handovers between staff working full time in teams/projects?

You pretty much need to demonstrate that there is no detriment to the company of you going flexi / PT or that any detriment can be mitigated. I agree with PP - it's not a flexible working request (hours of work in the working day) it's a request to go PT. Put 2.5 days back on the table and offer to recruit/train your work-twin.

You’ve got nothing to lose by doing this, and people have come up with good ideas about shorter days / half days etc. I’m sure they will appreciate it if you say you’ve heard their reasons and think another alternative pattern would work for the business (as well as you). Good luck!

My question would be what would a conversation do? You requested 2 days, then three. They followed the process and evaluated and denied. You said you expected a discussion - but then that wouldn’t be a formal evaluation and wouldn’t be following policy. Believe me, I have had to evaluate for a number of people who worked for me and it was a thorough detailed process involving job descriptions, objectives, company needs etc. The process is there so there aren’t any special exceptions or people don’t get litigious and it’s fair to everyone.

A business has to consider what the business needs and if they can accommodate your request. You said it was valid. It isn’t in the interest of the business and the question will be if you can do your five day job in three days how busy are you?

I get you may not like the response but they have already reduced your working days for you.

Also, very good luck in finding any office job at any decent level that allows you to work 2 or 3 days. And on top of that be flexible with nursery etc. An urban myth.

There isn’t a recourse. If you appeal, the same process will be reviewed and followed and the outcome will be the same (because why would a company suddenly make a different decision just because you don’t like it but all the facts are the same) with the added extra that you pushed things.

You are down because you didn’t get what you want. I would seriously recommend that you enjoy the rest of your maternity and come back ready to go.

And for those saying this isn’t a flexible working request it is. Flexible working in this context doesn’t mean flexitime, it means a change to working patterns. Guidance on gov.uk defines it as follows:

All employees have the legal right to request flexible working. Employees can request a change to:

• the number of hours they work
• when they start or finish work
• the days they work
• where they work

This is known as ‘making a statutory application’. Employees can make a request for flexible working from their first day in a job.

In that initial meeting, I had said that I wish to reduce my working hours. I didnt go into specifics but they told me to fill in flex work request form. They sounded positive that it would be met and theyd try to accommodate. OK, I understand 2 days was denied. But then why come out in this recent meeting and say they wish for it to be the same pattern as before?

Yes, employers can refuse flexible working requests from new mothers, but they must have a good business reason. However, employers can also face discrimination claims if they refuse a request in an unreasonable manner.

Here are some reasons an employer might refuse a request for flexible working:
The request would cause additional costs
The request would negatively impact customer demand
The employer can't reorganize work among existing staff
The employer can't recruit additional staff
The request would negatively impact quality or performance
There isn't enough work during the requested hours
The employer is making planned structural changes

If an employer refuses a request, they should clearly explain the reason and why it's a good business reason. They should also offer an appeal process.

If an employer refuses a request in an unreasonable manner, it could be considered discrimination. This is especially true if the employer is refusing to accommodate a mother's request to assist with childcare arrangements.

Employees can make a flexible working request on their first day of a job. They can use a form from their employer or the gov.uk website.

Absolutely plus the thought in the company’s mind that you are now somehow managing to do a full time job in half the time. Otherwise, the company has to consider impact on the wider team and overall needs who will have to pick up the slack of the two days of work and won’t be happy to not be paid more for that.

It’s not an urban myth at all.

How does anyone request going from FT to PT without going through a flexible working request process? Where I work it’s the same process if you want to request a shift to your start/end times by half hour or change from 5 to 3 days a week (for example).

OP where I work we have people doing job shares so they do 2-3 days a week on different days, would your job role work for this type of arrangement?

Why can't they recruit someone to job share with you? There must be other women in your position who would jump at a job share agreement.

Have they said they want it to be the same as before? Would they be OK with you doing 4 shorter days, for example? Have you asked whether they would consider any reduction over q different pattern?

Well I’m delighted for you but know a lot of professional women at many companies who would love to have this and only dream of it. I have a friend who is a teacher and she does reduced hours but not sure that is the same.

Is it still the case once you reduce hours you have no right to increase them again? It's a long time since I've asked for part time.

5 short days is good with school age children but doesn't work well for younger ones. I would have still have to pay for full days at nursery.

You could offer to work four half days? You could prioritise work to meet deadlines then and also progress tasks to meet deadlines each day

Because, having thought about the likely impact, that is what they wish.

Yeah, I was just wondering if they had listed any or literally just said no.

This! ^^

I don't know why so many posters think requesting part time hours doesn't constitute a flexible working request.

I work 3 days a week in a good job, and know several people who do - mostly women but not all. Unfortunately not all employers are as flexible though.

Can you ask them to make it a job share and create 2 or 3 days for someone else?

Is issue that they will need to hire another person? If so, that’s a big expense for employer. That’s not in your favour..

Since April they shouldnt reject a request without consultation with the requestor they'll likely argue they've done that with the meeting they had.
I'd say appeal and propose any alternative you would like considered its not for them to come up with them in isolation you're the only person who knows what's possible for you.

Why not ask what is the minimum number of hours they would accept and see if you can make that work?

Could you do 4 hours a day over 4 days?
No gaps then for them to complain about. Would also be great for when they start school.