Do we all have an indisputable right to inflationary or higher annual pay raises? And if we don't get them...

[AtheneNoctua]

is striking a just response?

I'm of course thinking of Thursday's teachers' strike. But, really they are not the only ones to go on stirke because their pay rises are not in line with inflation.

So what do you think?
Do you always get an inflationary pay rise?
What would you do if you didn't?

I'm undecided on whether or not I think the teachers' strike is an appropriate response to their pay rises. I do appreciate they don't make a lot of money. But, then they knew that when they decided to become teachers.

Discuss please...

sorry if I didn't make that clear enough - I'm comparing a real life example in the same area (south east)

I think the reason for this is because the Tories did some good work bribed on police officer pay 20 years ago when they made deals because of the miners strike.

i think everyone has the right to inflationary pay rises.

It is the entitlement culture, though.

Ten years or so ago I worked in a Social Services department and I took a call from a Social Worker who wanted me to tell her what time off she could have to move house. This is a direct copy of the conversation, I shall never forget it:

"That would be annual leave." I said. "Talk to your manager."

"Ah no," she said. "Surely I can have time off to move house?"

"Er, no" I said. Pause.

"Well how much sick do I have left?" she said.

"Um, not quite sure what you mean. Are you currently absent from work?"

"No, of course we are entitled to 2 weeks of sick a year. How much have I taken?" she queried.

I laughed. I thought it was a wind-up.

There has been a lot of culture change regarding the sickness entitlement etc, but I meet people every day who ask me about grade re-assessment simply because they have reached the top of the scale. They just won't consider actively looking for promotion, or taking on new responsibilities, they just feel entitled to more.

The public sector is facing decreasing budgets year on year. We have to find 2% cuts each year so clearly something is going to have to give somewhere and there is only so much the public will accept in reduced services. Indeed, there is growing pressure on frontline services with the demographic pressures.

'The public sector is facing decreasing budgets year on year. '

yet all the government seems interested in is bailing out the private sector - banks, and/or subsidising them to a pay a non-living wage - tax credits.

llaregub, there may well be an entitlement culture but in many public sector jobs, promotion comes after the performance, not before it. There is an anomaly there. and for many people, at least in the professional end of public sector employment, there just isn't anywhere else to go, is there? I don't know about social services, but it would be very hard for someone who had reached the top level to move up, because moving up would actually mean 'moving out' into another part of the organisation, or out completely.

That is a bit different though from someone taking the piss about sick leave. I don't think the teachers claims for an inflation-matching cost of living increase can be compared to someone swinging the lead?

I was trying to demonstrate the entitlement culture.

There is always opportunity for promotion. There are hierarchies in all of the public sector organisations I have worked in. A talented, experienced Social Worker may get promotion, following an assessment process, to be a Senior Social Worker Practitioner, or Team Leader, Team Manager, Head of Service etc. Or move sideway into a training role, for example. Teachers can take on additional curriculum points, or enter a more managerial role. Some may leave front line teaching and become inspectors.

But with promotion comes additional responsibilty, and a requirement to get selected. So there are career paths. What shouldn't be automatic is an entitlement to a pay rise just because. There is a squeeze on pay at the moment because of the reality of the current economic climate, not because the public sector isn't valued.

Just a small point, but police inspectors don't get paid overtime anymore.

I'm not sure that anyone has an indisputable right to a pay rise, but I do think that, providing procedures are followed, any union has the right to call a strike.

In my local area, teachers are reasonably well-paid compared to the private sector, Having said that good teachers, nurses etc etc really should be paid a lot more money for the job they do.

I don't think the public sector is valued, tbh.

I was quite shocked with a couple of articles in the Times (you know those profile a family ones in the financial pages to tell them how to arrange their finances) bot teachers were on over 40K neither claimed to be head or year or dept. or anything similar and one owned 2 properties (was in London).

Agree with the real shocker being those fantastic bonuses for people who really do very little of any value

Agree with the other real shocker being the 50 billion to bale out banks (who couldn't see that coming then) whilst simultaneously cutting the 10p tax rate.

However am v. upset that school has told us they are striking tonight after telling us they weren't on Monday

Teachers start on £18-19k & the top whack a classroom teacher can earn is 32K (not including London weighting) once they have gone through the threshold, which used to be after 10-11 years service, but is now more like after 8yrs. While the incremental increase is automatic, going through the threshold is not.

I don't think public service workers are necessarily entitled to above inflation increases in pay, but imo they are entitled not to have a pay cut which is what the teachers' 3 yr deal is. The pay deal was negotiated with an eye to keeping in line with inflation.

To have good, inspirational teachers standing in front of our kids, day in day out, then the govt have to pay a salary that is going to attract graduates into the profession. In the past I would say the govt have very much relied on the fact that a lot of teachers are women and are secondary wage earners in the family.

For the first time I've encountered teachers who are now entitled to benefits or are seeking second jobs in their down time.

Heated lots of public sector workers are getting a pay cut
DOn't even talk about the real rate of inflationThing I wonder about is where is it all going
ie they've started to strike now are they going to keep going until they get what they want? With only 30% of the membership voting for a strike?
What then will everyone else do? will this lead to large public sector pay rises all round?
Just a thought

I have no idea what my pay rise will be... I think teachers do work pretty hard and deserve a decent whack, but then don't we all? The way the strike is going it'll affect all children since if one class is out but the corresponding year groups are not, then surely the other teacher can't really teach them as they'll be getting education the other children are not which won't be fair to them (I spend too long in disciplinary meetings as I seem to spot potential discrimination everywhere [hmm)? My dd is in school this Thursday which I'm quite pleased about as she was nearly climbing the wall with frustration the last few days.

No, there are no plans for further strike action at present. They would have to run another ballot if they wanted to. The way I read it, is that it's a warning shot across the bows. The teachers are behind in negotiating pay deals, it was finalised last yr, whilst I think the new rounds, for instance for the police, have already started.

Think lots have been settled heated and for below inflation didn't the nurser get s*&^%$d with a 3 year deal?
I know they will need another ballot my question was really a rhetorical where is it all going?

Belgianbun, what would you propose regarding pay? Surely you can see that awarding someone an incremental payrise just for doing the same job, day in day out, is unsustainable? The country just can't afford it.

The teacher who has been teaching for 30 years will be paid more than the NQT. But there has to be a grade maximum, surely?

What do you propose llareggub experience and training is not rewarded? How to you keep people in the job?

(I must go and do some work)

llaregub, I'd bounce back to you the question of how teachers at the top of their scale are supposed to afford an incremental paycut, year on year which is the effect of inflation and stagnant pay negotiations?

It is the same the world over. Once an employee reaches a certain level, unless they are prepared to obtain additional qualifications or take on additional responsibilities, the pay rises dry up. Why are teachers any different from social workers, police officers, nurses and any other public/private sector worker?

People stay in jobs for all sorts of reasons, many of them completely unrelated to pay.

Isn't this the point? There is no answer. It is simply unaffordable. We cannot come up with alternatives because there aren't any.

On one minor point I disagree BB - otherwise totally agree wit your post.

London weighting isn't bad; my Dad's school is standard I suspect and a classroom teacher there at top of pay-scale gets £43,000, with no extra responsibilities. All HoD earn above 50k. The problem imo arises just outside London, in Essex, Kent, Surrey etc which is stockbroker/commuter-belt country and house prices are way above what a teacher can afford but they are on standard teaching salaries. Recruitment in those areas is appalling.

I'd like a payrise please, no-one at our company has had one in 7 years, on top of holiday entitlement of 20 days, Why the hell are we still there? I bet no-one can answer properly.