Do we all have an indisputable right to inflationary or higher annual pay raises? And if we don't get them...

[AtheneNoctua]

is striking a just response?

I'm of course thinking of Thursday's teachers' strike. But, really they are not the only ones to go on stirke because their pay rises are not in line with inflation.

So what do you think?
Do you always get an inflationary pay rise?
What would you do if you didn't?

I'm undecided on whether or not I think the teachers' strike is an appropriate response to their pay rises. I do appreciate they don't make a lot of money. But, then they knew that when they decided to become teachers.

Discuss please...

And that they have an indisputable right to it UnquietDad.
Public sector workers' pay has failed to keep pace with inflation for some years now.
We don't get gym membership, private health insurance, company car allowances or other perks to add value.
I think teachers have every right to strike over what amounts to a pay cut. Good luck to them if they want to.
The expense account culture in the City is slowly changing though. Deutsche Bank employees were today informed to keep claims for lunches for two to under £100, and that they might be required to travel second class instead of first on some train journeys. The poor loves
Hearing about that kind of wasteful consumption does rather strengthen one's innate sympathy with the teachers.

I don't think anyone is saying teachers don't work hard.

But since you asked, yes, I'd like the schooll system to do away with all these mid term, between term, and whatever else they are called breaks. Why can't they just go from one term to the next with a weekend between? (totally different issue though)

Surely if a lack of pay is a reason to strike for one profession, then it is a reason to stike for all professions.

I think that most teachers work very hard. I also think that a final-salary pension scheme is a HUGE benefit that isn't really talked about when we discuss public sector salaries. We chuck loads of money into DH's salary, and I have a stakeholder, but if there's a stock market crash just before we retire then we'll end up with nothing. I think that not having that worry is worth a lot of money.

Interesting to do the "teacher test" on houses too.

In 1994 two newly-qualified teachers would have been earning a joint salary of about £25K, which would have got them a house of £75K - enough for a semi in a very nice part of this city back then.

Today, two newly-qualified teachers would be on a joint salary of about £36K - that same semi in nice part of town would be 10 times their joint income. Totally out of their reach.

Are teachers still professionals? They can't afford to live in the "professional" parts of town any more. The same doesn't appear to be true of lawyers, accountants and doctors.

Of course, to creative artists and writers it;s all a joke. We'd appreciate a regular income of any sort...

The children couldn't go from one term to the other without a break, they would be too tired - I also agree they should be shorter and spread out so that holidays weren't so expensive for those who had to go in school holidays

The right to strike is available to all unionised professions. If your workplace doesn't allow you to strike then you should get union recognition.
The breaks are for the children as well as the teachers. Mine are shattered by the time half-term or term end comes.

That's right, children need holidays too. Come on, how many of you would seriously want to deprive your children of the school holidays?

novicecamper, if you don't want them to do anything with the holidays, what's the source of your problem with the holidays? Have you got the idea that teachers are paid for sitting on their arses for a quarter of the year? Because they are not.

I just knew you would bring up house prices unquiet dad

totally agree, no one could afford a house round here on a teachers salary. Same for nurses too, so woefully underpaid it's laughable.

"We don't get gym membership, private health insurance, company car allowances or other perks to add value."

Oh surely you jest. I don't get that either.

And comparing teachers to city workers is not really fair. City workers aren't exactly a sample of the real world. I think we would all agree their bonuses and other perks are outrageous.

Wherever the holidays are moved to Laurie, the British travel industry will be hot on their heels and ramping the prices. They've already done this in response to the change in some LEAs.
If it weren't for the pound-Euro situation I'd say, go abroad and book direct.
We don't give our business to the UK market. We go to France where the state staggers the holidays regionally and the price hikes for peak season are far more reasonable.

I think teachers do a great job and my friends who are teachers often bemoan the extra stuff they do - planning, evening marking, parent evenings etc., after school activities.

I think however there has to be some salary trade-off because of the volume of holidays.

I work on average 10/11 hours a day, get no scheduled breaks, I work every evening and always put in some time on Sundays.....I get 'invited' to calls with countries of very different timezones so can be taking calls at 9pm at night or at 8am in the morning, I get 'invited' to occasional calls on my 1 day off. I often have to travel on Sundays to be somewhere first thing Monday morning. I spend a lot of time, comparitively speaking, away from home. And yes I get paid more than your average teacher.

My point is LOTS of people who are not teachers, work damned hard and very long hours without the added bonus of 13 weeks holidays.

That's the same for everyone though UnquietDad. DH and I are professionals, but we work in the private sector (well, I stay at home to look after DD nowadays, but you know what I mean). GPs and lawyers are doing really well, but I don't think that you'll find the same of scientists, engineers or many others that were historically well paid.

The problem there is that house prices are so crazy compared to average salaries. My parents could afford a 3 bed semi in a nice part of town on his salary alone, there is no way that we would be able to do that if we hadn't saved forever to get a huge deposit (and even then it's a stretch). I think that teachers should be paid well, after all I don't want under-appreciated under-paid under-motivated people in charge of my daughter's education! But I think that not affording a house is a red herring.

I don't think any profession has a "right" to a payrise. However, employers (whether the gov't or private sector) have to take into account whether they're paying a wage which is competitive with other jobs. IMO, teachers work exceptionally hard and are, compared to other professions requiring similar level of qualifications, not that well paid for the level of responsibility they have. The LEAs set out (quite rightly) very high expectations for teachers and if they don't pay sufficiently, they will find their employees leaving the teaching profession. I think it last happened in the late 1990s when so many people left teaching that the government had to embark on a massive recruitment/incentive campaign to entice people into the profession.

Well, in my country... (don't you hate when foreigners say that ), we get a one week break in the spring, two weeks at Christmas, and then the equivalent of bank hols. It didn't tire us out. And I think the British are just as resilient as Americans.

But....

We got about 10 weeks off in the summer. So, the same amount of time off each year, it's just in a big chunk in the summer.

Ok, I'll compare like with like.

Teacher - £30k, no overtime
Police Inspector - £45 plus paid overtime (at £30 an hour)- when he goes over 44 hours

both exactly the same age, management responsibilities, qualifications (well, not exactly as dh has first class masters from oxford and bruv has 3rd class from poly).

My dh and his bruv-in-law.

The "compared to other professions requiring a similar level of qualifications" is the key thing, yes. Must compare like with like. Of course there will be some debate about what "like" actually is...

So, what is the pay comparison with teachers in the private schools, who are obviously doing virtually the same job? I noticed they are not part of the strike.

Huw, I think we all work hard in our working hours on this thread.
I think spending six hours on your feet, constantly alert to children's needs and responses - 30 of them - is extremely stressful in a very different way to the demands made by travel, conference calls, deadlines etc
I think those of us in management in the private or public sectors have far more control over our working day than a teacher. It must be absolutely incessant - if rewarding - and I think they should be paid double what they start on. Same goes for nurses and other disgustingly underpaid health support workers such as phlebotomists, physios etc
Being in the collective eye of your public for six, ten, 12 hours a day takes a HUGE toll on your health and wellbeing IME
A lot of public sector workers do not have the scope to break out for a coffee/five minutes' fresh air or even a loo break when they want it.

Private schools are a law unto themselves. I don't think we can bring them into the argument.

Private schools often pay less than the state sector - but it is dependent on the size and also the seniority of the role.

Private schools pay what they like but remember that you don't have to be qualified to work there.

Why not? Are private school teachers doing a radically different job? Enlighten me!

That's a very good point, marina - I remember a teacher I know talking to a friend in industry who had to do a stressful presentation to 30 people and was really worked up about all the preparation and the delivery etc... and the teacher said "imagine preparing and doing a similar one six times a day, to 30 boisterous louts - that's teaching!"

Marina, I worked in the Public Sector NHS and Local Government for almost 20 years. At no point during that time did I work as hard or as long as I do now in the Private sector. BUT, the pay is better.

Not doing a different job but the school can choose whether to employ qualified staff or not, the LEA can't choose this.