To feel that it's unfair

[Foreverundecided]

Feeling very hard done by ATM
So my husband has a senior position and an important position managing a large team and a couple of years ago after the traumatic birth of one of our DC he asked for flexible working, it was accepted despite the fact no other person had it but it was accepted

I took on a job which was meant to be flexible eg was advertised and sold to me as remote and now demands to come back to the office and due to a change in circumstances we also have a day with no childcare so I apply for flexible working
And was more or less told today it will be declined, no reason was offered to why just told it was With HR and they wouldn't comment
Even although I've had flexible working with a previous employer and I know how the process should work and what's happening isn't ok
But basically I know it translates to - we have a business reason to decline but we don't want you to have it, therefore we have involved HR to make sure we make up a astute business reason that will stand up legally

Feeling so down about it, I don't have a job that demands me to be there constantly and I manage my own workload and what I proposed would make no difference, it's just a power trip
It's not the first time I've experienced less than favourable treatment as a mother in the workplace
And I just find it wild my husband asked for flexible working for family issues and it was accepted but I do and I get told we have to treat everyone as equal and we can't take into account your childcare issues

Feeling so down about it, I often regret my career choice and it leads to a spiral of remembering the awful parts of my life that led to me diverging from what I planned on doing

Has anyone managed to win a employer over in relation to flexible working when they've already decided to decline it

Remove the emotion. You need to prove a business case that supports the flexible working. If it doesn't work, look elsewhere.

I have already proved a business case that supports flexible working

They have absolutely no reason for not giving it to me, when initially discussed my manager stated they could see no issue with my proposal

The issues comes from a line up who doesn't agree with flexible working

This is where the emotion comes from it's unfair and discrimatory.

Legally if they planned to reject my request they would need to discuss that with me and provide a suitable business reason
They haven't done that and are using delay tactics to try and come up with one that will hold up from a legal stand point

What do you mean by flexible working? Part-time hours, most employers will try to accommodate. WfH whilst providing childcare for a preschooler, virtually no company will agree to. Compressed hours is a bit hit and miss.

I actually wanted to drop one day or compress depending on what the business felt would suit them more

My role is professional role and I very much manage my own workload and initial conversation was that yes it would be fine
Now just looks like a no

I actually agreed to job on it being WFH full-time but they've decided they now want us back in when I asked on accepting the job if that in the pipe line I was told no

I don't work with preschoolers in the house
I have childcare when I WFH however a change in circumstances means we now have a childcare gap
If they return to office right now mandate wasn't forced upon us we potentially could have got family to cover this day but working from the office would mean my hours become 7 until 7 (2 hour commute each way ) instead of 9 to 5 and I can't find childcare for 4 DC for those times on that day

I wouldn't of even took the job if they told me I might need to work from the office down the line and I was explicitly clear during my interview I could only do the job if it was remote and they assured me it was and I turned down another offer on that basis too

Is working remotely written into your contract/ what does contract say?

• how large is your company? You might be able to challenge it but might make the company dynamic uncomfy

That's the tricky part the contract has listed as the place of work a office which they gave up during COVID ( I joined after this )
So that place of work doesn't exist
It states of about working remotely but mentions where suitable

I know I should of said at the time I wanted the wording changed however I do have a email where they verify I will WFH

It's a massive company so big in fact when I go into this office I won't even be working with anyone I know as they are placed in different geographical locations miles and miles away

I will go into a office and sit there by myself and have the same teams calls I have currently at home

I will be significantly financially impacted by the travel meaning the salary isn't what I would of accepted had I known

How long have you been at the company?

Can you set out to HR that you accepted the job on these terms, attaching the email confirming it was permanent WFH? And ask them to reconsider?

I do think that lots of businesses are moving back to the office & you might need to find some paid childcare for this day x

A year

I suppose I could, I mean I genuinely wouldn't have took the job If they'd expressed this could happen and I was very open about that at my interview
I had to fight for flexible working pre COVID when I had one DC and it was a horrible ordeal although I did get it, it wasn't pleasant

In all honesty I will probably resign rather than do this, I think the lack of transparency and mis selling of the job probably just bothers me too much

I too was going to ask what the exact wording of your contract was in terms of % of working in the office, or being contracted to WFH solely etc, but I see someone else asked that. Do you have a union to ask? Sounds like your contract is out of date/not fit for current purpose if it relates to covid standards.

If your employer has picked up that your motivation for flexible working is due to childcare, they may have clamped down for that reason, even if your children are older.

if they're insisting you return to the office now, and are not willing to consider compressed hours either, it sounds like they don't value you and aren't willing to meet in the middle on your request for flexible working, so that probably a sign to look for a new job elsewhere.

My instinct says that the reason they're declining is that, if they allowed it for you, they'd have to allow it for everyone who requested it in similar circumstances.

It sounds as though your DH asked for it some time earlier, when the climate might have been different, and in relation to a singular traumatic experience rather than something lots of people might cite, childcare.

It may be that there's no real reason not to allow it for everyone who has childcare issues, or it might be that if it was offered across your department, it would create issues.

They are obliged to give a reason and respond within reasonable timescales, but if they do this and decline your request, I don't think you'll have a strong case for discrimination - unless you could show that it's been allowed for someone else in your team, sharing similar circumstances, but not sharing any protected characteristic that you have.

Our senior staff could easily work from home but we have found our more junior staff develop better when in the office - we need the senior staff around to support our junior staff. Although we are more flexible than your employer - I just wanted to provide an example of why companies may want staff in when they could easily do their job from home. I'd start looking for another job - you need more flexibility in the long term and I think your current company are unlikely to be supportive of your needs.

I regularly review and have declined flexible working.
They should provide a reason or how else can you understand theur decision.
Usual reasons for declining are being unable to fill the hours with another staff member, possible restructure, wpuod negatively impact service delivery.
You should also have the right to appeal.
Consult ACAS.

I lost support/sympathy as soon as you said you were being discriminated against.

just because they don’t give you what you want doesn’t mean they are being discriminatory

@Dreamingofretirement actually it is discrimination on the basis creating a blanket policy that means because of who you are you are at a disadvantage
Eg giving no notice and asking everyone to come back to to the office, now whilst that policy equally applies to all for those with caring responsibilities be that children , a elderly relative or perhaps someone with a disability who has to put more effort into getting to work than actually yes that policy is going to negatively impact them as their situation is different and more notice and flexiblity is required to make it fair
And from a legal stand point that is discrimination and actually I am pretty well versed in
And whilst woman like you are probably the reason woman get shit deals and pushed out the office all the time
I have and I will always stand up and say what is unfair whether it's affecting me or someone else

And in this case actually I do know I have a good standing legally to challenge it
I just can't be bothered doing it because I shouldn't have too
If they don't have a good business reason to refuse requests they shouldn't refuse it

@Sethera it has actually been allowed for male in the team - they don't know I know this as we don't physically work together

I did think about the if they give it to me - it could create many requests but again because the office I would be working out of doesn't have anyone I actually work with in it and I wouldn't broadcast the arrangement anyway I feel this could be mitigated but appreciate they may have different thoughts

I think if they provide a reason and it's a appropriate business reason with real justification behind it then ok - it's the lack of transparency and communication in relation to everything that's really got to me

it has actually been allowed for male in the team - they don't know I know this as we don't physically work together

if you're confident that a man has been granted flexible working and it has since been declined to you, then I would set up an informal chat with the decision maker. Don't put anything in writing at this stage, say that you prefer to keep it informal, but you have evidence that you're being discriminated against. You want to be treated fairly and you don't want to go down any formal route, you'd rather discuss it amicably to try and resolve the situation.

You may need to compromise but see if they are at least willing to enter into a conversation with you.

Please check out ACAS for advice about flexible working. You should have has a meeting and a letter with an outcome. You're right in that there are a list of reasons for your request to be declined and these are broad! I would appeal the decision once they send you the letter. If appeal doesn't work raise a grievance and request a SAR. You never know what those bring up. Good luck!

They have to give you one of 3 reasons and then under that they have to give you one of 16 sub reasons. That's the law.
It has to be too difficult to implement, too costly or will impact quality.
If, this was something the offered you as an employment condition they are in breach.
Speak to ACAS.
I had this, and successfully appealed. I had to play chicken with them for 7m but that's how long it took to review the appeal and I worked flexibily the whole time while awaiting the decision also id been working flexibly for 2.7 months so had president. I also made it a condition of moving jobs, as I had it before and wouldn't have accepted on any basis.

You can do this, but you have to have the right mindset. You have to be prepared for them to not like it and feel the pressure but you are in the right, it just how much you're willing to hold out because you're right or whether it's time to find something else that's genuinely flexible.

Only you can make that decision.

But don't do anything until they give you the decision. PS they might not (my company tried this and just closed case" I emailed a very sweet email notifying them of their error of not giving me a written decision, based on their policy and government law. And reminding them a decision had to be based on above and how much application met that and they were in breach.

Watching them squirm was fun!

Good luck whatever you decide.

Also do you know that his situation is the same as yours? Could there be reasons that you're not aware of and possibly not required to know why he's been allowed.

Some years ago before wfh became a thing we had a man work two days a week from home. It caused trouble particularly among some of the women that they didn't get allowed it. However the person in question had medical issues that meant it was better for him to have two days wfh rather than a constant two days sick.

I lost when she said my husband got this and I didn't obv throwing toys out of ram and not seeing fact her husband prob asked at a different time and prob works for diff company also wonder how reasonable or unreasonable she is being with her employers or is she pulling the female card and the descrimination card also

What are this individual exact circumstances or is this just office gossip as in o I think so n so has flexible working but no actual knowledge

The issues comes from a line up who doesn't agree with flexible working
So its an everyone policy

This is where the emotion comes from it's unfair and discrimatory.

whilst that policy equally applies to all for those with caring responsibilities be that children , a elderly relative or perhaps someone with a disability who has to put more effort into getting to work than actually yes that policy is going to negatively impact them as their situation is different and more notice and flexiblity is required to make it fair

So have you applied for flexible working or not? Have you gone through the process and been turned down?

Contact pregnant then screwed helpline. They can offer advice for free.

also the law changed April this year regarding flexible working requests so look into the changes

@TinyFlamingo

Thank you for your response
What a breath of fresh air

I have spoken to ACAS and my union and based on what I have shared with them , emails and conversations I have received they magically happen to agree ATM their behaviour does indeed look to be discrimatory

I was told informally that I wasn't getting it and I must get back to the office , magically with a mention of how this isn't feasible and a reminder of the letter of the law , they are now looking into it and no decision has been reached

It's wonderful and amazing to see the lovely pleasant responses from other woman on this friend and we wonder why woman have so many issues with equality in the year of 2024

The woman card ? Well yes the woman card , actually having childcare issues as a woman does give you some protection
Pregnancy again is a example of a protected characteristic
It's not the woman card it's blatant facts as a woman we are often unfairly disadvantaged
Why on earth should any woman be forced to quit her job that she's spent years studying for , more years completing professional qualifications for because she's been subjected to a policy that means in 10 days she's to magically find childcare from half 6 in the morning till 7pm at night ?
Of course that as a blanket policy discriminates against certain groups and of course they should be offered protection in such a event

Furthermore every employee has the statutory right to request flexible working and actually yes they do have to consider the impact of their refusal and they have to give a specific business reason - not we don't want think that will work
Honestly wonder if people like you are the type who would refuse such a request just to be spiteful

Woman should be able to get a four day week to manage childcare poppy
A happy employee is a productive employee
And in the professional role I work in there is absolutely no reason a four day week is unworkable and as it appears they can't seem to come up with any reason to refuse it

Also my husband works in the same type of professional role
And no different circumstances but he didn't have to even to deal with childcare comments he was just given it
My work have no different circumstance that makes working in the office something that is needed

@Hereforaglance I was offered a remote job , what part of me stating this is unreasonable ? What part of saying yes I can come in some of the time but as I stated in my interview I can not for several reasons can come in everyday is unreasonable?
What part of submitting a flexible working request with the caveat I am open to suggestions would where possible work on the day I've dropped work to help meet requirements
I've bent over backwards to meet them in the middle despite them offering me a job on false pretences
Despite the fact even 8 weeks ago they told me been asked to work in the office wasn't a possibility

As a employee I am more than reasonable I smile and bend over backwards at points to do my role but as a human and person with feelings I am perfectly entitled to post on here and say it's shit and unfair because it is - refusing flexible working because they don't like the idea or because " my childcare isn't their concern" isn't a business reason at all
And I've met my fair share of woman pushed out of work over this