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Original poster

NHS AL (Request for Assistance with AL Balance Discrepancy)

52 replies

msagile2605 · 20/12/2023 19:54

Please can someone help

Request for Assistance with Annual Leave Balance Discrepancy

I had booked my AL and my boss gave me a go ahead, however today erostering came back and said i only have 5hrs remaining which i think its not correct.

After reviewing my AL balance and have noticed what appears to be a discrepancy. I would greatly appreciate your assistance, based on my understanding and NHS 10 years of continuous service, I believe I am entitled to 33 days (247.5 hours) of annual leave, in addition to 9 days of Bank Holidays (BH), totaling 314.5 hours
Based on my contract ending 16.1.24 my calculations is showing as below

185.63 hours
(24.75 days) 67.5 hours
(9 days) 253.13 hours

My employment contract commenced on 16.01.23 and is set to end on 16.1.24. According to my calculations, the balance for 10 years of continuous service should be 253.13 hours. However, the erostering team has calculated it to be 197 hours.

Additionally, I would like to request assistance in calculating the hours/days I have taken between 16.1.23 and 31.3.23. This information is crucial for determining the total hours I have utilized thus far in my entire time in my current Trust.

Any help with this issue is highly appreciated.

Thank you for your time and assistance in resolving this concern.

OP posts:
Lougle · 21/12/2023 07:28

If you don't work bank holidays, then it isn't your leave to take, so they are probably saying that your annual leave that was bookable was 197.

bookish83 · 21/12/2023 07:29

Your leave will run from Jan- 31st March 23 (including any BH in this period if any)

Your leave will run from from 1st April- 16th Jan 24 and includes ALL BHs you happen to work during that time but not your allowance for any beyond 16th Jan 2024.

The extra ones we got this and last year confuse things but I believe you would get the full days allowance for any your contract covers the time period for ie new year 2024 covered but not Easter 2024

Check if you get a/l for a part month i.e both January months. I've heard some places don't give you the full month but I also don't think that has ever happened to me and seems morally wrong!

Even though you have a year contract I believe your annual leave would still be split into two financial years as above. Trusts tend to work in hours as per e roster too.

bookish83 · 21/12/2023 07:31

Lougle · 21/12/2023 07:28

If you don't work bank holidays, then it isn't your leave to take, so they are probably saying that your annual leave that was bookable was 197.

Thats a point actually. If BH are not your working days these may have been automatically applied for you to save you the hassle.

Clinical teams who work BH have the pleasure of working out their own BHs as its more complicated when you work some but not others.

HairdryerMary · 21/12/2023 07:33

@MrsRobinsonsHandprints you're welcome to come and work for the NHS anytime you like. If you think that's so much of a perk...

Spacecowboys · 21/12/2023 07:43

@bookish83 Clinical teams who work some bank holidays don’t need to work out their bank holidays, you just get the 8 days as part of your leave allowance that can be booked ( or 9 if there is an additional one that year). It doesn't get reduced if you work 4 bank holidays but not the others ( as an example).

RichardMarxisinnocent · 21/12/2023 07:43

FrangipaniBlue · 21/12/2023 07:21

The Erostering team emailed me and said I had 197 hours.

I would double check with them whether this is your AL or whether it's AL plus BHs......

By my calculations your AL from 1 April - 16 Jan equates to 197hrs but you should also then have 8/9 bank holidays on top of that too.

I've just found a website which splits the leave allowance into with and without bank holidays - 197 is without bank holidays. With is 264.5 which means the OP has 5 hours left, as they've taken 259.5 hours.

RichardMarxisinnocent · 21/12/2023 07:52

If you didn't take the full 51 hours in Jan to March 2023, then you would have had hours which could have been carried over, but this would probably need to have been approved.

RichardMarxisinnocent · 21/12/2023 07:59

In what context are the erostering team telling you have have 197 hours? Are they trying to tell you you've take too much leave? Or just telling you your allowance minus bank holidays?
You said you were told you have 5 hours left - do you think this is wrong? It calculates as correct to me.

Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 08:19

FrangipaniBlue · 21/12/2023 07:21

The Erostering team emailed me and said I had 197 hours.

I would double check with them whether this is your AL or whether it's AL plus BHs......

By my calculations your AL from 1 April - 16 Jan equates to 197hrs but you should also then have 8/9 bank holidays on top of that too.

197 is minus BH
They have added 67.5 BH therefore makes my total entitlement 264.5hrs
Does that sound right?

OP posts:
RichardMarxisinnocent · 21/12/2023 08:31

264.5 is exactly right according to my Trust's annual leave calculator. Do you think it isn't right? Were the hours not taken in Jan to March supposed to have been carried over?

Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 08:47

MaybeBaby2024 · 21/12/2023 01:10

I could be wrong but I calculated your entitlement from 16/01/23 - 31/03/23 as 66 hours.

247.5 + 67.5 =315.
Divide 315 by 12 for AL hours per month, so 26.25 hrs. 16th Jan to 31st Jan is 16 days, divide 26.25 by 31 and multiply by 16, gives you 13.5 hrs for days worked in Jan.
26.25 x 2 = 52.5 hrs for Feb and March, plus 13.5 for Jan = 66 hours.

If you took 22 hours before the end of March that leaves 44 hours. If your manager let you carry those 44 hours over, 01/04/23 - 16/01/24 you would have 236.25 hrs (26.25 x 9 Apr-Dec 23) + 13.5 hrs (1-16 Jan 24) + 44hrs (carried from 16 Jan - 31 March 23) = 293.75 hrs

So total leave from 16/01/23 - 16/01/24 is 293.75 + 22 = 315.75 hrs

However may be slightly less if you weren’t allowed to carry the 44 hours over.

MaybeBaby2024, thank you very much for doing those calculations.

It sounds a bit right; I have just looked on e-rostering between 16/01/23 - 31/03/23, and I had AL = 52 hours. Which appears there is a discrepancy of 14hrs

My manager did approve at the time; he approved the 52hrs - 22hrs = 30hrs that was in ERostering, which, looking back now, seems incorrect.

I have taken a total of 259.5hrs since 1st April to date, and that includes 25th, 26th, and 1st Jan 24

And between 16.1.23 to 31.3.23, I took 22hrs.

Following these calculations = 259.5 + 22 = 281.3

315.75 - 281.5 = 34.45hrs (Is what I have to take)

Thank you once again let me try work out with erostering team and my manager

OP posts:
Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 08:52

RichardMarxisinnocent · 21/12/2023 07:59

In what context are the erostering team telling you have have 197 hours? Are they trying to tell you you've take too much leave? Or just telling you your allowance minus bank holidays?
You said you were told you have 5 hours left - do you think this is wrong? It calculates as correct to me.

They are saying I have 197hrs plus 67.5BH, and therefore I only have 5hrs left to take before the end of my contract on 16.1.23, which appears incorrect to me.

OP posts:
Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 08:57

RichardMarxisinnocent · 21/12/2023 07:43

I've just found a website which splits the leave allowance into with and without bank holidays - 197 is without bank holidays. With is 264.5 which means the OP has 5 hours left, as they've taken 259.5 hours.

Show quote history

Please, can you share the name of the website? I work for the NHS, and I think I am learning the hard way that I need to do my calculations as well and be confirming with what I am told I have.

OP posts:
weemou · 21/12/2023 09:14

It sounds like you might be double counting bank holidays. You said that you don't work the bank holidays, which mean the bh time gets deducted off the overall allowance you have to take freely (as it is used to allow you to be off on the bank holidays) and you have 197 hours remaining which you can take anytime.

Annual leave generally can't be carried over from one financial year to the next, so unless you made a request which was approved by your manager prior to the end of March, you will have lost the time you didn't take.

Go through the time you have taken off and work out how much you have taken on non bank holiday days? Then you need to take that number away from 197 to see what you have left.

NeonK · 21/12/2023 09:22

You say you've taken 259.5hrs (incl BH) this year from a total allocation of 264.5 (including BH) so yes, 5 hours remaining would be correct.

It sounds like you think you've carried forward unused leave from 16 Jan 23-Mar 23. You need to check if this is allowed in your trust - it isn't in many and would likely need to be specifically approved in any that do allow it.

FrangipaniBlue · 21/12/2023 09:32

197 is minus BH
They have added 67.5 BH therefore makes my total entitlement 264.5hrs
Does that sound right?

It's exactly right?

1 April - 16 Jan = 291 days
if you apply that prorate to 33 days holiday then it's 33/365x291 = 26.3 days

Multiply by 7.5hrs = 197hrs

There were 9 BH in that same period which = 67.5hrs

So your entitlement is 264.5hrs and you said that have used 259.5hrs.

That leaves you with 5hrs to take, which is exactly what you've said the erostering team have also said?

Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 11:14

weemou · 21/12/2023 09:14

It sounds like you might be double counting bank holidays. You said that you don't work the bank holidays, which mean the bh time gets deducted off the overall allowance you have to take freely (as it is used to allow you to be off on the bank holidays) and you have 197 hours remaining which you can take anytime.

Annual leave generally can't be carried over from one financial year to the next, so unless you made a request which was approved by your manager prior to the end of March, you will have lost the time you didn't take.

Go through the time you have taken off and work out how much you have taken on non bank holiday days? Then you need to take that number away from 197 to see what you have left.

Thanks for responding.

Having gone through all the responses here, I believe my discrepancies are more related to the period from January to March 2023, which I have just confirmed was approved by the manager.

I need to figure out what hours I was entitled to during that time. According to e-rostering, it's showing 52 hours, but I suspect that might be incorrect.

OP posts:
Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 11:22

FrangipaniBlue · 21/12/2023 09:32

197 is minus BH
They have added 67.5 BH therefore makes my total entitlement 264.5hrs
Does that sound right?

It's exactly right?

1 April - 16 Jan = 291 days
if you apply that prorate to 33 days holiday then it's 33/365x291 = 26.3 days

Multiply by 7.5hrs = 197hrs

There were 9 BH in that same period which = 67.5hrs

So your entitlement is 264.5hrs and you said that have used 259.5hrs.

That leaves you with 5hrs to take, which is exactly what you've said the erostering team have also said?

Thank you, FrangipanBlue, for all your responses. I truly appreciate you taking the time to answer and calculate for me.

Having gone through all the responses here, I believe my discrepancies are more related to the period from January to March 2023, which I have just confirmed was approved by the manager.

However, were there not 9 bank holidays plus one additional BH in May for the coronation of the King?

Now, I need to figure out what hours I was entitled to during that time. According to e-rostering, it's showing 52 hours, but I suspect that might be incorrect.

By copying your calculations, it should be as follows: Jan to March was supposed to have been carried over as Jan 16, Feb 28, March 31.= Total 85 days

33/365x85 Days? Is this correct?

OP posts:
greydoor · 21/12/2023 11:33

Did you apply to carry unused leave over? Usually it's not allowed and you have to make a special application, and agree to use it within the first month or so of the new year. If you didn't apply then it would be lost.

You're only entitled to the bank holidays that fall within your employment period. For example if you worked 1st November to 15tj December you would not be entitled to any bank holiday time, as none fall within that time.

This is a helpful calculator. It's for Scotland but same t&cs re annual leave as England workforce.nhs.scot/calculators/annual-leave-calculator/

Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 13:59

I did yes - manager just confirmed it was approved

OP posts:
Original poster
msagile2605 · 21/12/2023 14:02

Where are moving slowly but surely-

ERostering information was entered incorrectly, and they have just confirmed they were basing the AL on a 5-10yrs basis, not a 10 years plus basis, despite having all the information at the time and confirming they had done it before I even joined my trust.

May I ask where I can find this information, please?
CSD dates, they(Workforce) have said I can submit an assignment process via MSS for error correction, or alternatively, send a contractual changes form.

Can someone point me to where I can find this info, please?

OP posts:
Midlandsmother1 · 21/12/2023 18:20

Hi
So I was informed this last week too that even though I too would have accrued 33 days plus bank holidays. I was only able to carry over 5.6 weeks. So I will loose 11 days AL. Is this not discrimination?🤔

Sisterpita · 21/12/2023 19:08

@Midlandsmother1 no because you should be taking your leave. If you can prove you asked for leave and it was refused you could argue to carry over more. However, be aware under the Working Time Regulations you should be taking a minimum of 20 days leave each year - this can include BH.

FrangipaniBlue · 21/12/2023 23:03

16 Jan - 31 Mar is only 75 days

Applying the same prorate calculation
33/365x75 = 6.8 days which is 51hrs

There were no BHs in that period though so I think that's all you would get?

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