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Original poster

Been called 'abrasive'

37 replies

Howmanyroses · 20/12/2023 13:54

I have been in my current job for a year and had a performance/development chat with my manager. Context is that I have been a high performer, leading on most of the projects and received glowing feedback from stakeholders and the rest of the immediate team. Apparently, feedback from the LT was that I am definitely an SME but that I can also be 'abrasive'. No further comments were supplied. What would you do? To me this seems really unfair without any further explanation or an opportunity to understand why they made those comments and learn what I can do differently. I asked to set up a further session to discuss. What else would you do? Here is an article which explains why I feel like it's a slap in the face https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2018/08/28/when-women-are-called-aggressive-at-work/?sh=105cb83b7bc8

When Women Are Called 'Aggressive' At Work

Patrima Rao Gluckman, author of 'Nevertheless,She Persisted' says there's a double standard for working women who are called "aggressive" when men aren't.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2018/08/28/when-women-are-called-aggressive-at-work?sh=105cb83b7bc8

OP posts:
CyberCritical · 20/12/2023 14:21

Ask for specific examples of your abrasiveness nd how you could have approached the situation differently.

They can't just label your communication as wrong without telling you why and how to make it right. If they have no specific examples and can't articulate why you are abrasive then the question back to them is whether there could be anything else affecting that persons perception that's more a 'them' problem than a 'you're problem.

HappyHamsters · 20/12/2023 14:36

Whats an LT and SME

Original poster
Howmanyroses · 20/12/2023 15:16

CyberCritical · 20/12/2023 14:21

Ask for specific examples of your abrasiveness nd how you could have approached the situation differently.

They can't just label your communication as wrong without telling you why and how to make it right. If they have no specific examples and can't articulate why you are abrasive then the question back to them is whether there could be anything else affecting that persons perception that's more a 'them' problem than a 'you're problem.

@CyberCritical Thank you, yes planning on asking about the specifics in a follow-up meeting.

@HappyHamsters LT =leadership team SME=subject matter expert

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 20/12/2023 15:34

OP, I'd agree that the comments aren't actionable feedback without some specifics.

I've never forgotten reading about this study. I issue a reminder before review time and if reviews has critical feedback I ask them to rewrite it if it doesn't contain actionable recommendations.

This is the study referenced in the Forbes piece.

There’s a common perception that women in technology endure personality feedback that their male peers just don’t receive. Words like bossy, abrasive, strident, and aggressive are used to describe women’s behaviors when they lead; words like emotional and irrational describe their behaviors when they object. All of these words show up at least twice in the women’s review text I reviewed, some much more often. Abrasive alone is used 17 times to describe 13 different women. Among these words, only aggressive shows up in men’s reviews at all. It shows up three times, twice with an exhortation to be more of it.

https://web.stanford.edu/dept/radiology/cgi-bin/raddiversity/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/TheAbrasivenessTrap.pdf

I wish these style of comments weren't so common that they're a cliché.

https://web.stanford.edu/dept/radiology/cgi-bin/raddiversity/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/TheAbrasivenessTrap.pdf

youveturnedupwelldone · 20/12/2023 15:48

Sadly this does happen to women all the time. Woman told she is abrasive, man told he is bold and forthright.

I suspect someone (probably not the whole LT, just one man person I'd think) thinks you're not ladylike enough, or you disagreed with them, challenged them in some way, lead your project too well, basically you didn't stay in your "place". This sort of feedback never comes with actual examples because it's not designed to be constructive, it's designed to get you back in said "place".

shearwater2 · 20/12/2023 15:49

Consider it a compliment, we need abrasive people or nothing would ever be questioned.

Neriah · 20/12/2023 17:15

I agree with pretty much everything. But... without more information it's impossible to really comment constructively. I'm very, very good at what I do. Not bragging, just a fact. I am strong. I am assertive. I am a good leader and a strong mentor. Etc. Etc. And I can be abrasive! Sometimes "abrasive" is actually the right thing. Sometimes I misjudge, and it isn't. Sometimes I just get frustrated or annoyed and "abrasive" pops up, deliberately or not. Often not, although fortunately not all that commonly now.

Abrasive can be a good thing. Sometimes it's a matter of judgement. And I don't see it as gender /sex based without a context - I've met many abrasive men.

And every now and then I'm deliberately abrasive because I really, really don't like you...

You need to understand what the context of the comment is, and don't just ignore it. Abrasive is neither good nor bad - it's all down to how you use it, or it uses you. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water. One way or another there is learning.

Original poster
Howmanyroses · 20/12/2023 19:04

Thanks everyone, this is incredibly useful advice, which I will follow. It's incredibly unfair that in this day and age of general wokeness, it seems that old stereotypes still prevail.

OP posts:
Igmum · 20/12/2023 19:26

Ah yes, you're a capable woman with expertise and opinions.

Oblomov23 · 21/12/2023 06:23

I too would ask them to clarify with specific examples.

flowerchild2000 · 21/12/2023 06:27

As soon as I read that sentence I knew it was blatant misogyny. Don't ask for explanations call it what it is and please tell them they do not get to fucking do that!

rwalker · 21/12/2023 07:19

Are you abrasive

I have a colleague who says there straight talking but the reality is the come across as abrupt and fucking rude

weekfour · 21/12/2023 08:22

Last year I would have been 100% being you. This year I've worked with a female project manager who is frankly vile. She's rude, abrupt, rubs everyone up the wrong way and is frankly..... abrasive! I've thoroughly hated working for her and her manner makes it so that junior members of my team just don't talk in meetings now. There really is no need for her manner. There's a line between assertive and unnecessary.
I've not wanted to call it out because I didn't like the term and can see how it is unfairly aimed at women, but in the end I did. It ended up being discussed at Managers meeting where everyone came out in agreement. I'm sure the PM just thinks she's assertive but I'll be very surprised if she gets another contract.
I think you're right to ask for actionable feedback. Take everything as a learning opportunity.

weekfour · 21/12/2023 08:23

weekfour · 21/12/2023 08:22

Last year I would have been 100% being you. This year I've worked with a female project manager who is frankly vile. She's rude, abrupt, rubs everyone up the wrong way and is frankly..... abrasive! I've thoroughly hated working for her and her manner makes it so that junior members of my team just don't talk in meetings now. There really is no need for her manner. There's a line between assertive and unnecessary.
I've not wanted to call it out because I didn't like the term and can see how it is unfairly aimed at women, but in the end I did. It ended up being discussed at Managers meeting where everyone came out in agreement. I'm sure the PM just thinks she's assertive but I'll be very surprised if she gets another contract.
I think you're right to ask for actionable feedback. Take everything as a learning opportunity.

100% behind you!!!

user1471447924 · 21/12/2023 08:25

rwalker · 21/12/2023 07:19

Are you abrasive

I have a colleague who says there straight talking but the reality is the come across as abrupt and fucking rude

Exactly, is there a chance that although you might not like to think it, you do come across differently to how you might imagine?

Mangledrake · 21/12/2023 08:29

Some people really are abrasive - men and women - and it's not always appropriate work behaviour.

So I wouldn't write it off as misogyny although I don't find that explanation improbable.

The fact that they have gone for a description like this rather than cite an event or example isn't a good sign. It tips the balance in favour of someone having a vague objection to your manner. But do find out. Good luck.

Growlybear83 · 21/12/2023 08:30

In my 50 years of work experience, I'm afraid I've always found that referring to someone as abrasive is a polite way of saying they are rude, whether they are male or female.

wideawakeinthemiddleofthenightagain · 21/12/2023 08:31

Picking up on what @Neriah said, it would be helpful if you could get an understanding of when you are apparently being abrasive. Part of my role is to challenge; another part is telling people what they don't necessary want to hear; I work in a high pressure environment at times so need to be efficient; in a group with, it seems to me, a lot of people who waffle, cutting through it all and summing something up is a useful skill.
However, when a couple of people junior to me described me as abrasive, that was when I made some changes. There was no need for me to behave that way toward them. Similarly, when a couple of people described it as "just being part of my personality". Well, no, it's not so I could think about what I needed to change so that it didn't come across that way.

AlisonDonut · 21/12/2023 08:33

Been there, done that.

If you pipe up, you re abrasive
If you let others talk and don't pipe up, you are lacking in motivation and they question your commitment to the job/project/topic.

Now that you have raised it I'd ask for the last 3 examples so that you can learn and what is it they would have expected you to done instead. I'd probably also ask which men they have described the same, so that you can witness what specific behaviours they find objectionable, just to make sure it isn't a sexist comment and only ever made towards women.

Sorrynotsore · 21/12/2023 08:33

You could be abrasive, we can't say. But I agree with pp's that you need examples for this to be actionable feedback.

It can also be misogyny a lot of the time

Lalalanding · 21/12/2023 08:33

Growlybear83 · 21/12/2023 08:30

In my 50 years of work experience, I'm afraid I've always found that referring to someone as abrasive is a polite way of saying they are rude, whether they are male or female.

I absolutely agree with this and the problem is I think women get called out on it and men don’t for the exact same behaviour.

Redburnett · 21/12/2023 08:34

Shearwater is right. Just keep doing your job well.
As a manager I once had a difficult member of staff, who did things his way regardless, but he was far too good at this job for me to pursue his idiosyncracies in any meaningful way.

Startingagainandagain · 21/12/2023 08:39

It really is bad practice to put something like 'abrasive' in an appraisal without backing it up with specific examples and some advice on how this could be improved on.

Because done like this it just sounds like subjective criticism from someone/people who might have a specific agenda (could be that they are threatened by a capable, strong woman...).

Also if you were truly hard to deal with there would have been issues raised by several people from different part of the organisation earlier on.

As was suggested already the best action is to stay calm and professional and ask for clear example of what has been deemed 'abrasive'.

I would send this in an email if you can because you will want to have a written record of it.

Really bad management I must say to have told you this without evidence to back it up...

Random30 · 21/12/2023 14:54

weekfour · 21/12/2023 08:22

Last year I would have been 100% being you. This year I've worked with a female project manager who is frankly vile. She's rude, abrupt, rubs everyone up the wrong way and is frankly..... abrasive! I've thoroughly hated working for her and her manner makes it so that junior members of my team just don't talk in meetings now. There really is no need for her manner. There's a line between assertive and unnecessary.
I've not wanted to call it out because I didn't like the term and can see how it is unfairly aimed at women, but in the end I did. It ended up being discussed at Managers meeting where everyone came out in agreement. I'm sure the PM just thinks she's assertive but I'll be very surprised if she gets another contract.
I think you're right to ask for actionable feedback. Take everything as a learning opportunity.

I wouldn’t write it off as misogyny just yet, for one, it adds “lack of self awareness/reflection” to the list of faults.

I get good feedback, but have just finished a project with someone where no-one on the team was fit to wipe the PM’s boots. Even with some chronic underperformers he was never rude, always encouraging, and everyone has already asked to work with him again.
Look around you, who are the individuals who are competent and not abrasive. Think about the words/actions/gestures/emails which are abrasive and ask yourself honestly could the label be applied to you- perhaps by those who are more sensitive, but who nonetheless got a listening ear from your boss.

Being defensive about this will not serve you well. Taking it on the chin and cultivating the warm side of your personality without compromising performance will be much much better.

SwedishEdith · 21/12/2023 19:34

Maybe you are but you need an example. I work with someone who was telling me, in a shocked way, that they'd had feedback about being "abrasive". I was just thinking, 'Well, you are and I'm glad someone has finally told you '. Plenty of people are assertive and effective without being abrasive.