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Work/Therapy - Boss has zero empathy

27 replies

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 23/11/2023 13:57

Just to give context by saying that I have struggled with depression/anxiety since the age of 5 (now 37), have been in my current role for six years and have only had a handful of days off in that time for this reason. I've accessed a fair bit of therapy in this time and work have always been supportive as long as I make sure that I make the time up (I usually do a few hours unpaid overtime every week anyway).

I have the opportunity to access a therapy group specialising in trauma, specifically for survivors of domestic abuse, rape and sexual assault - I was in an abusive relationship for many years, and didn't until recently really click on that what he had done to me was rape and assault. My boss and head of department are aware, but not of the full gory details. Group will be 2 hours a week for 12 weeks and in work time, but Head of Department was supportive of me attending for my own health and wellbeing.

Asked direct line manager after they've returned from leave... the first session clashes with an event that I'm not leading on (I have my own one to do without any other team members supporting me) and for which I've written the slides for others to present, so I won't learn anything new either. She asked if I could miss the first therapy session - I checked, and I can, but don't see why I should. I let her know that I could miss it and was happy for her thoughts, again she highlighted the event - I feel like I'm being blackmailed slightly and don't know where to turn! Head of Department is on leave and have contacted my HR link for advice but no response and obviously a decision needs to be made.

Just to add this isn't the first time she's shown a total lack of empathy, it's a fairly regular thing. For example a few years ago my aunt and cat died over the same weekend and I took the Monday off as I was exhausted/wrung out - her exact words were 'I hope you're not going to make a habit of this?'

Any advice on what to do? I feel like if I go to therapy and miss the event she will hold it against me and I'm currently trying to put myself forward for the next stage in my career and make a good impression...

OP posts:
Gazelda · 23/11/2023 14:07

This is tricky. I can see why your manager isn't instantly giving this her full blessing - its 24 hours (plus travel?) out of the office and at a time when there's an event. Will your absence have any impact at all on the event? Will it mean someone else attending in your place, or something needing to be adapted because you're not there?

I know you will make up the time, but that doesn't mean there is zero impact.

However, if the therapy is going to help you long term, then you have to prioritise it. And you've had the OK from head of department. So it seems very unfair to put pressure on you.

Is the therapy and event soon? Can you wait until your head of department returns and then have a conversation with them both? I'd try to avoid playing one off against the other because that won't help anyone.

Gazelda · 23/11/2023 14:07

Oh, and I should have said that I'm sorry you've had such a rough time, and that the therapy will put you in a stronger place.

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 23/11/2023 14:13

@Gazelda It's only the first session that clashes with the event as that's a one-off - I don't usually have long-standing commitments that clash with it. Travel will be 5-10 mins either side as I'm usually home-based on a Monday. There would be no impact on the event other than someone else maybe having to make a few notes instead of me - no-one else needs to attend in my place. My boss leads on this service and I have my own event for the service I lead in a few weeks - no one else from my team will be attending my event.

It's really upset me having this additional pressure at a time when I'm already feeling a little vulnerable. The head of department isn't back until Monday which is the same day as the event/first therapy session - unfortunately I don't think I can raise the issue with him as it will be obvious to my boss if he says anything to her.

OP posts:
CyberCritical · 23/11/2023 14:38

She asked whether you could miss the first session, say that no you can't, it's important that you attend all 12 sessions and you will ensure that whoever is handling the event has your slides and the opportunity to ask any questions before the event takes place.

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 23/11/2023 14:39

@CyberCritical I already told her I could miss it if it was critical, as I want to keep on her good side at the moment otherwise I'll feel even more miserable. I only wrote the slides, I'm not presenting them as it's not my area of expertise - I just collated them from a few different sources.

OP posts:
Rocksonabeach · 23/11/2023 14:46

Go back to her and say

actually these are part of my medical recovery from rape / sexual assault etc so they are all critical it is 2 hours a week for 12 weeks which hopefully as you understand anxiety / ptsd etc is a disability I feel is a reasonable adjustment medically for me.

so yes it is critical I need medically help and support

I’m really conscientious and therefore if you ask me I will always try to put work and you first - so please whilst I am going through this recovery can you mark me out at these times and not ask - it is going to be traumatic to deal with and process and if you can help me by just supporting this medical and victim support in place for me I would really appreciate it.

Then say the same to her line manager

WhoWants2Know · 23/11/2023 14:49

Is it a large company with an HR department?

Therapy is is a mental health need, like any other medical appointment. I know the subject has come up in my workplace and I was assured that I would be supported to attend in working hours.

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 23/11/2023 14:57

@Rocksonabeach I don't know what speaking to her line manager could achieve as he can't really say/do anything without making it obvious that I've spoken to him. I already have reasonable adjustments in place due to my ASD and a physical health problem, but this doesn't officially include time off for appointments as that's related to something else

@WhoWants2Know it's the NHS (ironically mental health)

OP posts:
ReturnfromtheStars · 25/11/2023 00:10

Sorry, no advice for your actual question, but in general, is it even worth trying to impress her? Why not go after the good people instead who are better to work with / for.

Yellowcakestand · 25/11/2023 00:25

I work in NHS mental health and have recently been diagnosed with C-PTSD. I have access therapy through work. Initially my manager said I had to make the 2.5 hours time back but when I had my monthly meeting with HR they said no, it will be authorised leave. The therapist also said the same x

Good luck x

semideponent · 25/11/2023 01:26

Feeling you need to ask permission to take hold of what's already been offered/agreed to might be part of the legacy of the abusive relationship.

Could you get whatever is needed in place (e.g. someone else agrees to note taking) and then let your DM know what you will be doing, rather than asking? Given this group is for your healing and wellbeing then compromising it perhaps (unconsciously) means you're filling the shoes of your abuser with the figure of your DM. The pattern stays in place that way (although in a less obviously harmful way).

Nofilteritwonthelp · 25/11/2023 01:31

I'm sorry about your past and glad you have found some therapy. I'd say in general your bosses are being generous as I'd assume the deal is ita ok for you to go as long as it doesn't impact on work and if the person leading the therapy says its ok to miss then it will be. I'd feel annoyed, but also understand and be glad to be able to do it in general

daisychain01 · 25/11/2023 10:43

Would it be possible for you to enrol in the next available set of dates for the therapy course, if they're running it again. Forward book the dates in your calendar then you will be able to deconflict future things that crop up by saying sorry but I won't be in work that time/day.

Shortpoet · 25/11/2023 10:52

You’re much more important than a work event.

I think you should go to the therapy. That first session is important in setting the dynamic of the group. I think it is vital that you go.

You’ve written the slides for it. Others can manage at the event without you. (And if they can’t, that’s the manager’s problem, not yours).

Offer to coach the person running the event prior to it if that would be helpful.

But be very firm, that you will be attending the first session of some very important therapy.

Squiggles23 · 25/11/2023 10:57

You need to prioritise your health and tbh based on her comments here and when your aunt/cat died she sounds like a horrible manager.

I would reply:
I have thought this through and considered everything. The therapy course is hugely important and I’ve waited a long time on the wait list for this. (Put down how long and make it up if needed) Whilst in theory I could miss it, I spoke to the person running it and especially as it’s the first session it would be a huge loss to miss it.

If it were the session that I’m leading it would be totally different but fortunately in this one there is just a few slides from me which X can cover. I don’t think there will be anything specific I am missing although obviously I will be disappointed not to attend.

I previously spoke to ‘x’ (head of department) and she was very supportive of allowing me the time/flexibility to do this therapy. It’s a hugely tough situation but I have to consider my mental health. If I don’t prioritise that occasionally I won’t be able to give my best at work. Therefore, I think on balance I will need to go to therapy. I’m sorry again for the inconvenience and being this situation and will be happy to to help out in any other way I can..

Shortpoet · 25/11/2023 10:58

I do think you need to be more “tell” and less “ask”.

Instead of asking for her thoughts on “whether” you go. (You didn’t need her thoughts, HoD had already said yes).

You should make some suggestions as to how the team can get up to speed without you being present at the event.

I know it’s really hard when you are coming from a place of vulnerability and trauma, but think of it as prioritising the therapy for you over work as the first step in your recovery.

You matter. Put your needs first.

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 25/11/2023 11:34

So as an update, I bit the bullet and just said I was going as I thought it would help me more in the long run and would probably improve the way I've been feeling at work as well given that I've been struggling with my mental health.

I offered to attend the event until I need to leave (it's only 5 mins away) and to help set up, and to take away any feedback afterwards to formulate an action plan etc. all I got back was 'thank you for letting me know your decision'. That was literally it!

I genuinely don't know why she feels it's so important for me to be there - she's been doing the job 20+ years so not like she needs support/coaching and she's only presenting a couple of slides! I have my own service event to run next month and neither her nor anyone else from the team are attending!

I think I will raise it with the head of department but not sure how he could feed anything back without making it obvious I've said something (he can be a little tactless himself at times!)

OP posts:
Shortpoet · 25/11/2023 13:19

Well done!

I doubt the manager is going to be any nicer about it. Maybe she has deep psychological issues that are triggered by you actively facing up to yours. Maybe she just gets off on being unkind to staff. Either way it doesn’t matter.

Im really pleased you put your health first.

Squiggles23 · 25/11/2023 13:54

Well done OP 👏🏼 👏🏼

Sometimes people are like that. I know it’s probably not true but I always think they just have no life outside of work so they think everything work related is the most important thing in the world. They also tend to be very self-centred and not able to consider another persons needs/life.

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 25/11/2023 15:18

@Shortpoet @Squiggles23 she's actually also a friend of my mums so I've known her most of my life, but even my mum is mortified by her behaviour... and despite being friends for over 25 years, she still doesn't know much about her and finds her really cold and closed off! No trauma as far as I know but it's also not like I speak about mine in great detail...

OP posts:
Squiggles23 · 25/11/2023 16:45

That’s so bizarre that despite knowing you all your life she still can’t rustle up some empathy. The ice queen

Appleofmyeye2023 · 25/11/2023 17:13

as people have said, you are right just to state you will being going, rather than ask, in this case.

as for trying to figure it out …being unempathetic doesn’t make her a bad person. Some people find it hard . Especially if they’ve had no experience of things like mental illness or therapy themselves. People’s perception of you can go against you: you may come across as very capable, high performing and not least bit out of control, , then you throw this into the pot and they can’t process their view of you with this information, that you are not entirely so in control with life outside of work and are vulnerable. . Some of it may simply be they don’t know what to say and they’re embarrassed. And some of it is fear that they’ll set a prescedent for everyone to want time of for any appointment for anything.
so, she just not great at sympathy and empathy.

learn form that next time. Don’t try to position time out as it relates to how you feel. Keep to facts. I can’t come in today and need unpaid leave/urgent holiday as my aunt died and there’s stuff I need to do urgently. Sadly cat has died too, and obviously need to sort that out which doesn’t help. I’ll be back in tomorrow. “
”I have to have some nhs treatments, first session is xxx, and will run for 12 weeks. Realise this is going to be disruptive, so this is my proposal on how to deal with it….etc etc .

always state it in business terms.

fwiw, I’d be pretty unimpressed by employee asking for time off with no notice due to dead cat..but hey I’m not a pet owner 🤷🏼‍♀️🙄. I’d be more empathetic towards aunt though.

some people, don’t do the “soft fluffy stuff” well , these people tend to jump in with task focused conversation straight away. Comes across as unempathetic, but it is not necessarily the case.

The cold and distant bit sounds like someone who is shy maybe, or introvert, or has her own issues thst are so overwhelming she can’t express them. You just don’t know. And it’s not going to help you in future to know, and talking to your mum about her behaviour at work verges in the unprofessional. Just accept her, and take action to try a more perfunctory and fact based approach in future.

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 25/11/2023 17:18

@Appleofmyeye2023 I'm curious, if they didn't know each other would you think it was unprofessional to talk to my mum about how I've been treated by my manager? Surely most people would speak about things like this to their family/partner?

Also, I genuinely thought you'd missed where I'd said my aunt AND cat died in the same weekend but you mentioned my aunt elsewhere. I'd been supporting my cousin through this and obviously was upset myself so barely slept and would have been no use whatsoever if I had tried to come into work. I don't have kids, only cats but I'm guessing it would have been ok if it was caters leave last minute for a sick child etc?

OP posts:
Appleofmyeye2023 · 25/11/2023 22:05

DontBeBitterGlitter2023 · 25/11/2023 17:18

@Appleofmyeye2023 I'm curious, if they didn't know each other would you think it was unprofessional to talk to my mum about how I've been treated by my manager? Surely most people would speak about things like this to their family/partner?

Also, I genuinely thought you'd missed where I'd said my aunt AND cat died in the same weekend but you mentioned my aunt elsewhere. I'd been supporting my cousin through this and obviously was upset myself so barely slept and would have been no use whatsoever if I had tried to come into work. I don't have kids, only cats but I'm guessing it would have been ok if it was caters leave last minute for a sick child etc?

Q1: nope not an issue if mum and boss not friends. Very point is though that they are. Ever thought why boss is aloof with mum? Maybe because she doesn’t like being in position of her professional persona being under microscope of you and your mum, especially in areas of HR management or performance issues. Even if you were raving to mum about what a great boss she is. Bloody uncomfortable and high likelihood of loosing a friendship. I’d have raised a conflict of interest in managing you, if I was close friends with your mum.

Q2. Might help if you read employment law. All companies HR policies are based on that for barest essentials. some companies go above that, but rare. Compassionate leave in law is restricted to “dependents” and emergency leave examples given as death of dependent, employee being sick, urgent hospital admissions, etc.
Law doesn’t include cats. Or pets. Or animals. Law doesn’t regard pets as dependents. In fact law is very strong on independence of cats, particularly, with their effective “right to roam “ , something that children are not afforded - it is likely to be viewed as neglect in their case.

and yes I’d put child care above cat care every single time. As does the law. The law states, since 1996, that parents or guardians are allowed emergency leave to care for “dependent” child. Their child. No cats or pets mentioned in that either

sadly, under current law, your aunt or cousin are also not classed as “dependants” either (unless you were your cousins legal guardian), so in asking for time off you are already likely to be out of most companies policies for unplanned emergency leave. So you need to position it carefully.

if you were unwell and unable to work because of these sad events, the only other approach would be to be signed off by GP. or more likely in your case self certify.

when positioning a request for time out, use your company policies and the law. You are right to state (which I did say clearly) you can’t miss your first session. Been to therapy myself for PTSD and it’s important not to miss any. Take evidence of appointment, state you have looked at alternative times/ providers buts it’s not possible, go with a plan of how you can make it work to minimise impact on business (which you outlined nicely). Putting it in writing also helps next time.
In the example you gave re your aunt, I’d have put it in terms that whilst not a legal “dependant” that the relationship was close and your cousin had immediate needs only you could meet. Id state clewrly the flexibility I’d given to company to help out in emergencies, banked hours etc, and how I would committ to do that in future. I’d present a business case in effect of why them being flexible would pay off in long term in terms of my commitment back to them. again I’d write it out and send as email. I’d not have mentioned the cat, that’s the point , it is sadly irrelevant for question of leave and shows a distinct lack of understanding on how management and hr policies operate

Don’t expect empathy, don’t solicit empathy. Stick to facts you need to give, state what you need/want, why, etc . If you get empathy and a good listening ear, that’s great, but remember your boss and HR are part of the management team, and their objectives and yours will not always align .

Squiggles23 · 25/11/2023 23:07

Sorry @Appleofmyeye2023 I fell asleep reading that and couldn’t get past all the different laws being recited.

I must have missed the part where OP asked whether she legally could go to therapy? 🤣

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