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Original poster

HR investigations

525 replies

Mamof2g · 20/09/2023 09:29

Hello
so I’m currently signed off sick with a throat infection and work have seen me outside of my home taking my son to his rugby match, they have now launched an investigation and could end up in dismissal. A colleague videoed me and has since shared this where I work. Work have also announced to everyone that I’m under investigation. Are they allowed to do this? Many thanks

OP posts:
Original poster
Mamof2g · 20/09/2023 23:06

Just to add it’s a male who filmed me, if it was the other way round I’d have gone upto him and spoke with him and asked if he was ok and feeling better.

OP posts:
M4J4 · 20/09/2023 23:12

Mamof2g · 20/09/2023 23:06

Just to add it’s a male who filmed me, if it was the other way round I’d have gone upto him and spoke with him and asked if he was ok and feeling better.

That explains it. He probably puts on the dressing gown of doom and stays in bed when he's even slightly sick, leaving the kids to his wife.

sunglassesonthetable · 20/09/2023 23:25

Dressing Gown of Doom 😆

letthemalldoone · 21/09/2023 01:14

Mamof2g · 20/09/2023 21:36

@letthemalldoone no been formally invited yet, I will be saying I can’t take anyone from work, and will be giving them my reasons, unfortunately it’s already affecting me mentally, luckily a family member is very clued on on things like this and has compiled a list of questions such as ‘can you show me where is the sickness/absence policy it’s says I have to stay at home’ as this is what I was told on the phone by my manager, I will also be taken notes myself too, one to give me time to gather my thoughts and so the emotions doing affect me. Thanks for you support

Of course it is, and you are so welcome, hope I can help even a tiny little bit - you have my every sympathy here. Disciplinaries/grievances etc are my bread and butter, and I absolutely would not support any manager taking this shit forward! I really really hate to see people being badly treated!

So you haven't even had a formal confirmation that you are under investigation? That is so bad, especially as the world and its wife seems to be privy to this confidential information!!

They're on a hiding to nothing - an IT would tan their hide!!! - but it's still stressful to have to go through this, especially when you're not well in the first place.

Definitely make sure to state that their conduct has limited your access to representation. That is procedurally unfair before you even get started on the lack of confidentiality, the breach of trust and confidence (be a little careful with that one as they could potentially say that this means you can no longer work there), or the GDPR elements, not to mention the unreasonableness of an investigation in the first place, and the fact that other people have been informed of this before you have even had formal notice!! I am glad you have someone knowledgeable on your side - that means a lot. Your manager is a dick.

Yes, take notes by all means, and make sure they give you time to note everything that's said and that they don't rush you. If HR take notes, ask them to share those notes with you as well. Do feel free to ask for a break if you need one. A lot of people wouldn't think of that in advance. I would always 100% facilitate that and offer it as an option at the outset of any meeting. Also take water in case it's not provided, as you may need to drink some when you are talking a lot. IMO even when employees are clearly as guilty as hell of the allegations, they still should be treated with dignity and respect! I always take the view that making a mistake doesn't mean they are a bad person who deserves to be censured!

Much as I have had my profession run into the ground by certain elements here, I am always very much on the side of the employee unless there is good reason to the contrary. HR professionals are human too! We also go through the same shit as other employees. I recently had to get my union involved as I was being bullied by my line manager, and had to go LTS because it was having such a profound impact on my mental health.

Please do keep us updated as to how things go. Solidarity!!

letthemalldoone · 21/09/2023 01:24

LuluBlakey1 · 20/09/2023 21:38

And presumably HR will make that very clear to the manager when they are asked to investigate. But the colleague will most likely have felt pissed off by someone who is not well enough to be at work (in a care facility where no doubt there are staffing issues) but is well enough to sit outside for an hour watching a rugby match. As I said, HR will be wasting their time investigating this because OP has been to A and E and the GP and has a Dr's note.
Other staff are rarely sympathetic.

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Well they should be, because one day that will be them!

letthemalldoone · 21/09/2023 01:28

Sisterpita · 20/09/2023 22:02

@Mamof2g if HR or a manager has shared this information with anyone including people who are not employees they are the ones to be in trouble.

You can take a colleague or TU rep but they cannot answer for you. Their role is normally to take notes for you. In this case I would ask to record the meeting because there is no independent colleague. You can also request an independent investigating officer because HR and management have not followed the grievance process nor complied with GDPR.

A colleague or a TU rep can absolutely speak on your behalf!

Unfortunately the OP does not have either option.

letthemalldoone · 21/09/2023 01:34

endofthelinefinally · 20/09/2023 20:43

This post illustrates perfectly the problem with HR not understanding that OH doctors gather information from confidential medical records, with the permission and consent of the employee to allow sharing with OC professionals. They then write a report from those records that contain only what is necessary for an employment perspective. Nothing else is included because the employee has a right to privacy regarding anything not pertinent to their actual job.
The HR department does not have consent to see the individual's medical records, only the OC report. But HR frequently seem to not understand that OH has to balance privacy and confidentiality with what is necessary. There is a duty of care.

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IMO OH reports are a complete waste of time and money. I say that as someone who has been 'on both sides'. The OH physician only parrots what the employee has told them and then charges the employer an arm and a leg. Post-Covid they don't even meet the employee in person - it's all online!!

Even if comprehensive information has been provided in advance by management, OH can only comment on the employee's account. I honestly don't think they are worth the paper they are written on.

I had a case once of an alcoholic referred to OH. The recommendation came back that the individual should be regularly breath tested!!! I sure as hell wasn't going to be the one to do that!!!

Sisterpita · 21/09/2023 06:18

@letthemalldoone If you read my response carefully I said they cannot answer for you not that they couldn’t speak.

I also said in this case ask to record the meeting because there was no one independent to take.

Brefugee · 21/09/2023 06:24

Jammylou · 20/09/2023 19:37

I think it depends on what you were doing at the Rugby match as if you were jumping up and down and shouting then I do think that is grounds for an investigation. Sorry but just trying to see it from your colleagues and employers point of view.
When staff are on sick leave I don't think it's reasonable to expect them to stay in as going out is good for our wellbeing but as i have said it depends if the outing puts in doubt the reason for your absence. Then they have grounds to investigate.
They should not however be announcing it to any team members all investigations should remain confidential And you could make a complaint about that.

OP has repeatedly said she was sitting and using a throat spray.

And it matters not onr jot what the colleagues think. It matters what OP's doctors think and document. If colleagues have too much work as a result of OP's absence? That is for management to handle. Not OP

Aprilx · 21/09/2023 06:48

Brefugee · 21/09/2023 06:24

OP has repeatedly said she was sitting and using a throat spray.

And it matters not onr jot what the colleagues think. It matters what OP's doctors think and document. If colleagues have too much work as a result of OP's absence? That is for management to handle. Not OP

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And Jammylou said it was grounds for an investigation. I would be inclined to agree. You know an investigation is just that something that is looked into, it is not the same as saying she should be fired on the spot.

endofthelinefinally · 21/09/2023 06:53

letthemalldoone · 21/09/2023 01:34

IMO OH reports are a complete waste of time and money. I say that as someone who has been 'on both sides'. The OH physician only parrots what the employee has told them and then charges the employer an arm and a leg. Post-Covid they don't even meet the employee in person - it's all online!!

Even if comprehensive information has been provided in advance by management, OH can only comment on the employee's account. I honestly don't think they are worth the paper they are written on.

I had a case once of an alcoholic referred to OH. The recommendation came back that the individual should be regularly breath tested!!! I sure as hell wasn't going to be the one to do that!!!

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I am sorry that you clearly have had experience of a very poor OH service. What you have described is pretty unprofessional, I agree.

SOBplus · 21/09/2023 07:01

Ask them if you can record the meeting and use your phone to do so. It will put them on the back foot and ensure you have all the evidence you need for compensation for the unfair dismissal claim as you have been forced to leave due to their actions. Good luck.

Megifer · 21/09/2023 07:09

SOBplus · 21/09/2023 07:01

Ask them if you can record the meeting and use your phone to do so. It will put them on the back foot and ensure you have all the evidence you need for compensation for the unfair dismissal claim as you have been forced to leave due to their actions. Good luck.

HR are used to people recording meetings, with permission or covertly, so it very likely wouldn't be a surprise to them at all. I've never had an issue with someone asking to record a meeting, it can disrupt the flow a bit but I've always said we have nothing to hide so go for it. (I find that then puts the employee on the back foot, unintentionally).

DrSbaitso · 21/09/2023 07:33

The OH physician only parrots what the employee has told them

Is that what you call a doctor giving a report after consultation with a patient?

Emotionalsupportviper · 21/09/2023 07:37

Rosscameasdoody · 20/09/2023 20:10

There’s nothing to tell the police unless the children were shown in the video.

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Does that still apply when the video is taken and shown with malicious intent?

But certainly, as others have pointed out, revealing your, or other people's children, is inappropriate. In fact don't a lot of schools ban videos and photos precisely for this reason?

Who knows if the children of one of those families are fleeing domestic violence with their mam, and the way this footage is being shared round means that an abuser finds them?

Or that a paedophile doesn't get hold of the footage and mis-use it? I'd fight fire with fire in this situation. @Mamof2g can, if necessary, get doctor's confirmation that she needs to be out in fresh air but is not yet well enough to return to work; the people who have made this film public have NO RIGHT whatsoever to do this.

I don't know what's going to happen at the meeting, obviously, but I'd point out this aspect and that they will be in a damn sight more trouble than you.

@zeibesaffron seems to know what she's talking about - follow her advice; especially about having someone in the meetings with you. Don't be bullied. And as others have suggested - record the meeting.

Also keep calm, don't lose your temper or get upset. Stick to facts and keep emotions out of it. (Try a bit of deep breathing beforehand). Having someone with you will help you with this.

Unless you have done something, pr have caused problems at work which you aren't mentioning, there is a degree of spite here which is staggering. I have worked in a situation myself where I have been bullied and excluded purely because my "face didn't fit", and have know others in the same situation. Often it's because you got the job that had been "earmarked" for someone they were pally with. It's a horrible situation to be in. I wish you the best of luck.

Viviennemary · 21/09/2023 07:42

Aprilx · 21/09/2023 06:48

And Jammylou said it was grounds for an investigation. I would be inclined to agree. You know an investigation is just that something that is looked into, it is not the same as saying she should be fired on the spot.

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I also think the employer has grounds for an investigation into this. But they still should not have shared information with other staff members.

Original poster
Mamof2g · 21/09/2023 08:20

@Emotionalsupportviper have been bullied and excluded purely because my "face didn't fit", and have know others in the same situation. Often it's because you got the job that had been "earmarked" for someone they were pally with

this is it!

OP posts:
Brefugee · 21/09/2023 08:56

Aprilx · 21/09/2023 06:48

And Jammylou said it was grounds for an investigation. I would be inclined to agree. You know an investigation is just that something that is looked into, it is not the same as saying she should be fired on the spot.

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What is it in the words "for Management to handle" didn't you grasp?

Handling it doesn't involve telling anyone other than OP at this stage.

Megifer · 21/09/2023 08:59

Viviennemary · 21/09/2023 07:42

I also think the employer has grounds for an investigation into this. But they still should not have shared information with other staff members.

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Id also agree there are grounds for an investigation, as that's all it is. Info finding. Although tbf id advise this under absence management so a bit of a softer touch e.g. starting with a welfare meeting possibly leading to OH who I've always found to be quite neutral, the good ones anyway. Out of interest how is your sickness record generally?

I wouldn't wait on getting your grievance in either so if you can, try to get that in today. Good luck!!

(As a side I don't think throat sprays should be used loads, think they can be a bit like nasal sprays where they can cause more harm than good if you go over the recommended dose bitter experience of nasal sprays)

Littlegoth · 21/09/2023 09:04

As HR I would have no issue with people recording.

We like to use the transcript function on Teams then everyone who was present has access to the same transcript, but as Teams doesn’t always get it right we are happy to offer the option of video recording the meeting - it avoids any ambiguity. We offer this for all investigations, grievances etc. We are professionals and have nothing to hide (and it’s saved our balls on occasion when something has been falsely alleged so goes both ways).

whatwasthatgrandma · 21/09/2023 09:07

Rosscameasdoody · 20/09/2023 20:10

There’s nothing to tell the police unless the children were shown in the video.

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There are no laws against videoing children in public, either.

Megifer · 21/09/2023 09:07

Littlegoth · 21/09/2023 09:04

As HR I would have no issue with people recording.

We like to use the transcript function on Teams then everyone who was present has access to the same transcript, but as Teams doesn’t always get it right we are happy to offer the option of video recording the meeting - it avoids any ambiguity. We offer this for all investigations, grievances etc. We are professionals and have nothing to hide (and it’s saved our balls on occasion when something has been falsely alleged so goes both ways).

Edited

Omg the Teams transcripts are hilarious 😂 apparently I once said "I like brie" when I actually said "ah really?"

Sorry I know that's off topic but I'm so happy I've been reminded of that 😄

DrSbaitso · 21/09/2023 09:20

Megifer · 21/09/2023 09:07

Omg the Teams transcripts are hilarious 😂 apparently I once said "I like brie" when I actually said "ah really?"

Sorry I know that's off topic but I'm so happy I've been reminded of that 😄

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Brie is amazing, to be fair.

sunglassesonthetable · 21/09/2023 09:24

Don't take cheese in with you OP.

Megifer · 21/09/2023 09:27

😂😩

Meeting was about a pretty serious cock up on a project too so it provided a bit of light relief when we all reviewed the transcript afterwards.

I don't even like brie.