If you work in HR...

[Summertime777]

If you work in HR, do you often find yourself having to do things that go against your conscience? I was reading another MN thread where someone who worked in HR talked about having been ordered to find excuses not to pay some workers in circumstances where there was no legitimate reason not to pay them. I wondered how often HR professionals find themselves effectively being ordered by their bosses to do things that they know are wrong. I'm not talking about things that fall into the "difficult but necessary" category such as redundancies due to a businesses downturn. I'm talking about stuff that really isn't defensible, but the order has come from someone senior to you who could push you out of your job if they so choose. My reason for asking is that I'm trying to give good advice to a DC who has recently finished university and thinking about career options. Obviously it's his life and his choice, but he does ask my opinion on stuff like this, and I'd like to give good advice rather than duff advice! Interested in any experiences!

HR is not your friend. As an employee. They aren't there to support staff at all. They are there as an employee themselves, to support the employer / the business.

This but people think it's the other way round.

HR isn't about the employee at all, it's all about the employer. I assume people go into the role knowing that

One thing to add after the number of ‘HR is all about the business comments.’

Every function in a business exists because it is useful for that business. If a business doesn’t get a good ROI on a role that role doesn’t need to exist and a businesses primary function is to make money. That’s basic capitalism.

HR literally means Human Resources so thinking of your people like resources and how you can get the most out of them. For some businesses, particularly those with highly skilled workers who are hard to find in the marketplace this means focusing on retention and development and treating your employees really well. Working in those industries is often great because you have a budget and you just needs strategies to improve engagement and retention etc.

It can be harder at businesses with leaders that don’t value their Human Resources but as a HR leader there your job there is to advise on employment law and keep them out of employment tribunals, speak up when they are doing things that will affect engagement, retention etc. Ultimately though, you can’t make a business care about their staff or act ethically you are just there as an admin, operator or strategic hr leader depending on your seniority

HR is filled with grey areas, different problems and ways of tackling them, it's not an area where there is always one correct answer or action. Which makes it very interesting.

To your question, I would say no, I have never been forced to do anything unethical. I have a couple of times been involved in dismissals where I personally felt that was disproportionate and wasn't happy about it. I felt bad for the employees. But one of my colleagues might have looked at those circumstances and thought it was completely appropriate. And to be honest, one of those employees was likely to be dismissed at some point, I just thought it was too early. They weren't clear cut situations.

Far more often, I've been able to advise and stop something happening that shouldn't, where an individual manager is taking an in appropriate line. We protect employees far more than we are given credit for.

There are companies out there who do unethical things. I used to work for a couple in non HR roles (one marketing, one customer management and sales) and regret staying as long as I did. It's not good whatever role you are in.

I've found HR to have very strong ethical boundaries.

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yes. But I’ve always taken roles where I could manage that, to a degree. Eg the role where I was in charge of firing people who were guilty of nothing more than needing a bit more support to hit the required level. I used to pause before the “you’re fired bit” to let them resign instead.

With current identity politics, all the time.

No, but have never been asked to do something unethical. I do things I don't enjoy eg advise on disciplinary, redundancy. My job is to ensure fairness and mitigate risk for my employer. This is typically in stopping over eager managers from doing something that could lead to legal action.

To the point it's not about the Employee, you are wrong. You'd be very surprised at the suite of policies and support I can use to help an Employee and make a case to the manager for latitude. People need help in their lives, giving them reasonable slack helps them in not adding work pressure which might mean they leave the business.

I am here to tell you - employees would be treated a heck of a lot worse in many cases if it wasn't for HR! We are the ones who argue for compassion where it's merited and put the brakes on the level of crazy that would land managers in a tribunal.

Many years ago (probably 30ish!) so the book is probably well out of date but a quote from it has always stuck with me. I think it was either The Change Masters or When Giants Learn to Dance by Rosabeth Moss Kanter, and it described HR as being "somewhere between managers and managed". I think that's a great way to describe it. Protecting the organisation of necessity not just ethically is protecting employees, making sure they are treated with fairness and consistency.

I don't understand why some people are hellbent on making HR the enemy?

I've worked in many places where (innocent) staff have been screwed over by HR. HR is all about protecting the organisation, but pretend they are there for you. Just because it might be worse without them, doesn't make it ok. Also if someone wants to work in that area, it's something they should consider as I'm sure alot of young or inexperienced people probably are interested in this area as they wrongly think it's there to help people

It's also sector dependent. I've worked in public sector HR for all of my career. Generally speaking we always try to do the right thing, we work with Unions and pay great benefits. Employees often don't appreciate what they have but at least I know that when hard decisions have to be made it's because we've exhausted every reasonable option. I've never been coerced into anything unethical.

I like to think I help people in my role. Treating them with dignity and compassion etc even if they are on a disciplinary. Decent people fuck up sometimes. While I don't have a lot of respect for some colleagues and managers, I don't think any of them would kick someone when they are down.

I've seen a couple of people screwed over early in my career. (I'm old!) One was where a senior HR manager was good friends with senior managers in a couple of different service areas (crooks the lot of them tbh, but try proving that!) An employee from one service area was dismissed for something that was prevalent in that service. He obviously pissed the wrong person off! So the three of them got together and substantially reduced his wife's hours as she worked in the other service area.

The other was an interview for a senior post. The candidate who best fitted the profile was unpopular - he was a bit of a wanker tbh! - but the panel put forward the favoured candidate along with two complete no-hopers. Total fix. I did protest but was overruled by a more senior manager.

I don't think those things would happen so much now (not in my organisation anyway, although there are some very dodgy things that do happen which I am not privy to!) because people are much more aware of their rights and more willing to stand up for them.

It's not about "pretending" that HR are there for you. Yes, the primary function is to protect the organisation from litigation, but the way to do that is to make sure that matters are handled fairly and transparently.

I think I'm a better HR manager as I'm older; I've experienced a lot of things that people are going through too so I can empathise. I'll bend the rules if I think it's in the interests of the employee - not too much because I've had that come back to bite me on the arse! - while I think less experienced practitioners are more inclined to go totally 'by the book'.

Same - I agree with that.

I think unions are less antagonistic now (in most cases) because it's in everyone's interests to sort the situation out in the best way. The best union reps I find are the ones who are willing to work with you.

HR are there to protect the business, and need to make difficult decisions to achieve this. If your DC is that way inclined, they will thrive.

IME HR are the WORST kind of people. Pretending to be on your side, then acting without any consideration for the employee at all. It's not what they do - that is their job obviously, it's the underhanded sneakiness with which they act. @Summertime777 what about training or coaching as career options instead?Those roles really do help employees unlike HR.

I think the HR model has changed in recent years. It is far more supportive and employee focused now, whether every company has got that message is up for debate. It also very much depends on whether the people working in HR have kept themselves abreast of current thinking or are merely relying on their outdated learning and experience.

I quite simply will not sign my name to anything I don’t agree with - I will not end up in a tribunal for blindly following orders. Hard decisions may be made, but they will be made for the right reasons, with respect for the person involved at all times.

Well thank you for the character assassination.

I am never "sneaky" and never have been. I have been blessed/cursed with a massive sense of injustice all my life, to the extent that it has got me into trouble for speaking out. My personal integrity is very important to me, always has been. I have never, ever "act[ed] without any consideration for the employee at all" and I find your comments insulting and unfair. I am often more on the side of the employee if their manager has been an arsehole.

I am sure there are bad eggs in the basket - there always are. Where I am, the issue is more about people being promoted way above their level of competence, and don't have a clue what makes a good manager. I have suffered massively from shite managers.

I can only think of one situation in the last few years where compassion eluded me, although I always acted professionally. One involved a safeguarding issue with a child (low level). Employee set a time by which they needed to leave the hearing, took personal calls and lied through their teeth, and more. When confronted with CCTV evidence that confirmed their lies and they were asked did they want to change their statement in any way they said no.

There are dickish employees too!!!

I got into HR after an extraordinarily poor work experience.

To be fully transparent - the HR people involved at the time were appalling throughout.

After gathering myself, I realised I had a unique insight. I’ve experienced shit HR professionals and decided I wanted to help people. I want to prevent people ever experiencing what I did.

I agree with this too.

I think what happens is, employees want the impossible. I absolutely fucking hate Dignity at Work cases - most of them are "he said/she said" without any solid evidence or witnesses. You spend so much time investigating, and speaking to numerous people, but at the end of the day, you are left with nothing to make a call on.

That then pisses employees off, because you don't find in their favour. Without actual evidence, you can't!

I was already in HR when I had a horrendous experience that affected my whole career. If anyone had a reason to have beef with HR, it's me!! However, I think I got caught up in some sort of power struggle/potential blackmail, to an exceptional degree; I will never know - but the CEO was complicit. I don't think they would get away with that shit now.

I also want to prevent people from experiencing what I did.

I think you probably get similar feelings in all roles. I handle complaints and although most are pretty black and white there have been a few where I had to write a complaint response I didn't really agree with, but my managers decision on our outcome would be final.

I find people find it very easy to dehumanise those who work in HR, it’s hard sometimes!

”the worst sort of people”, “sneaky”, “not your friend”. I truly believe the latter comment is only made because HR is a female dominated profession, and of course, women in professional roles must also be your friend. It’s apparently unacceptable that they do their job.

I think you are probably right - it can be brutal sometimes! A combination of managers who regard these issues as something for HR, their failure to properly engage etc! I lost it recently over one manager. I sent an email my manager didn't think I should have sent - I disagree. I have been trying to get this one resolved for nearly a year. I got the, "he's a senior manager you know" and I went, "I don't give a fuck, he is still a prick". Then I was threatened that it might be reported to the team manager - response, "I couldn't give a shit about that either!"

I have come across some horrendous managers in my career, and am sad to say, most of them have been female...

Does the idea of wrangling with these types of dilemmas fill your son with dread or curiosity? If the former then it's not for him because although not having to avoid ethical landmines everyday - there will be a lot of uncomfortable discussions to be had. In the main HR is rarely thrilling to the extent you'll often need battle your conscience. I haven't come across anyone who actively pursued it as a 'career' so to speak. If your son fits into the latter camp then advise him to get into law - pending practice area. Because at least there he can earn decent money for all the potential wrangling through dilemmas, ethical or otherwise.

That's really clutching at straws 😳 it's got nothing to do with being a female thing! 😒

It all depends on the company culture at the end of the day. Picking who to work for is key. Some companies are cut throat. Also some do not value HR and hire in unqualified staff.

I was in HR for many years and was never asked to do anything I felt would be 'wrong'. You did get some managers who would suggest courses of action that went against employment law, however it was my job to point that out and find a different way of handling the situation.

Good HR will focus on employee health and wellbeing as part of their function.

All this 'HR is not there to support you / HR is not your friend', they are there to help support employees but that doesn't always mean the result is the one the employee wants. As PP said, in a 'he said, she said' case, you can't discipline someone without evidence. Bullies at work are like those at school, hardly likely to do it when others are around so you have no evidence. This leads the employee to often get angry at HR.

You have led a sheltered life! You do realise that people take Bachelors and Masters degrees in HRM?!