To be utterly demoralised by civil service recruitment?

[MabelMoo23]

I’m currently working in an admin role after stepping down in my career due to husband’s role and family commitments. I’m now trying to improve my situation and am applying to civil service roles.

I know all about success profiles / strengths etc. I’ve researched throughly and I’m applying to HEO roles which are fractionally above what I earn now. My previous salary is that of SEO level, but I appreciate it’s tough to externally get into SEO level.

But I can’t seem to crack it. I’ve had 3 interviews so far, for different roles, two not made it, but one I got onto the reserve list after making it to the final stage and being invited to a “fireside chat”.

that was hard, to get close, but not quite close enough. So I paid for some CS coaching and to be fair, got given some really good tips - for example in STAR saying HOW you did the action bit to get the result, not what.

saw a great role, another HEO, so applied and, 2 of the behaviours were the exact same ones as the role I applied for that I got on the reserve list. I didn’t even get a bloody interview!!! So frustrating. I can’t seem to crack it.

the really frustrating thing is, for a role I ended up on the reserve list for, for this role, my score on two of those identical behaviours was a 3, (all others including CV and experience were a 4). So Which actually really means, that whilst CS recruitment is designed to be “blind” ultimately, the scoring is still subjective. And of course as a result, CS recruitment is still biased to a certain extent, because internal CS staff obviously know how to answer these questions.

but I just can’t crack it. I even paid for a session of coaching, then didn’t even get an interview and I feel utterly demoralised now and wondering if I can even face trying again with different roles. I’ve spent literally hours doing applications, I know for CS you can’t just bang out an application, you have to follow the behaviours in success profiles and give examples. I’ve researched so much, done 3 interviews, tried to learn from feedback and I’m just not cracking it.

I don’t know if it’s even worth bothering trying anymore because I genuinely don’t know what else I can do. Just feel utterly demoralised by it all. Sorry no point to this thread other than a vent

Sifters can tell when it's an application that's being used for lots of jobs.

It isn't always the case that a CV used for multiple roles necessarily stacks against the candidate. Provided the CV is carefully tailored to the role spec, the name at the top of the CV shouldn't be an issue.

for example if there are several vacancies in a department, each requiring a different skill-set, a candidate is completely at liberty to tailor their CV to showcase specific experience and qualifications for each vacancy - if they meet the criteria for one but not the other, that isn't viewed negatively, it's about matching the must-have requirements to the role specification, and if there's a good fit, then the CV will be sifted for interview accordingly, and sifted out if they don't meet the criteria.

Some people are (rightly or wrongly) tempted to throw their CV at numerous vacancies even if their skill-set isn't a good match, in the hope they'll get an interview. This is sometimes a successful technique if they bespoke the CV so it meets the criteria and (a) they are applying for entry-level roles where some flexibility is possible (entry level roles enable CS candidates to move up the ranks which in itself creates a churn of vacancies at entry levels) and (b) where the quality / match of CVs in a campaign isn't great, the sift looks at "equivalent" skills/experience even if not a full match.

Civil Service doesn't have any across-the-board "recruitment freeze" - particularly when some departments have a massive shortfall. Recruitment Freeze does not mean "we are not filling staff vacancies" where staff have left - that would be untenable. It just means there won't be a significant number of additional FTE added to the workforce at a point in time. The country needs to keep running, and CS is the engine by which stuff gets done, and I'm saying this as a completely a-political statement of fact, free of party politics.

must-have requirements to the role specification

= must-have requirements on the candidate's CV to the role specification in the job advert

Thank you for this thread. I was seconded into the civil service and my pay was actually higher than the grade I was seconded into (but they honoured it) after a couple of years doing a great job I was scored in the top category on the talent grid and sent back to my primary employer. I've been trying to achieve a permanent post the whole time and I cant seem to crack civil service recruitment either. Despite having the most extensive performance literature I've ever seen there seems to be zero rhyme or reason in the way it's applied. So frustrating.

What does this mean please? Help a prospective candidate out! :-)

It means they don't ask on the basis of "tell me about a time" but on the basis of "what would you do if..."

Ah. Different to strengths?

No they are designed to address strengths and behaviours.

Yea, it's a massive mess

the civil service is now moving to hypotheticals as part of success profiles which they use to recruit

@LexMitior I don't want to outright contradict you on this point as the CS is a big employer, but when you say CS "is moving to hypotheticals" I presume you don't mean across the board?

Several years ago CS moved towards competency-based "tell me a time when you did xyz...." questions and stopped doing the hypothetical "In this situation, what would you do?" because it was unhelpful to put candidates on the spot in a made-up scenario, rather than focussing on their specific skills, qualifications and experience gained. Also as a Diversity-Friendly employer it doesn't support (and could in some cases discriminate against) candidates with Neuro-Diverse conditions where made up scenarios are diametrically opposed to the way they think through things. Having conducted many interviews where the candidate has stated they are ND, the last thing I want to do is put them in an anxiety-inducing position where they are unable to respond to a question that they will struggle to handle because of their Disability.

Civil service here, I see both sides, I sift and interview in my role and the amount of people who don't understand the role they are applying for is significant. Op I would check the actual role you're applying for as I think as PP have said, you're not applying like for like. Plus as an EA or PA you'll end up without flexibility in all honesty, if you're working closely with SCS then you'll be around when they are or trying to catch up.
On the flip side, I'm applying for roles, substantive and promotion, I've been knocked back for both but also offered a reserve for promotion.
Remember each sift will be completed by a different person and they will be looking for particular aspects within your CV and personal statement. Make sure you tailor the personal statement to the role, look at the advert and where it has what your application is sifted on, make sure you include evidence for those.

@daisychain01 - it seems that some higher level roles now use only hypothetical questions, but of course it can't be across the board. I had this myself the other week, along with colleagues applying for similar roles at other times. I did find it confusing but had the approach confirmed on here as applying in other departments.

Hi OP,

I am happy to look over your job application if you want. I applied for a promotion last month, and just got feedback that my application scored the highest score of 7. I don’t think I would have been able to land a 7 if I wasn’t an internal applicant as my application was wholly tailored to the role.

I'd also be interested to know what admin jobs you're seeing advertised at HEO level. I was told years ago that admin doesn't warrant HEO level (ie it's not important enough) and when the PA to the director is an EO on £25k it does seem very clear they don't appreciate good admin staff.

I also think it's seen as quite a big jump from EO to HEO, in my department there are virtually no opportunities for promotion from EO or even level transfer moves (ie staying as an EO but doing a different job - opportunities for broadening skill set). Loads and loads for level transfers for HEO so you can move around and gain experience in specific areas to suit your career aspirations.

Also, different departments pay different salaries for the same 'rank', so an EO in one department may be paid £3-4k more than an EO in a different one. And bear in mind that although salaries are advertised as a range, there is actually no mechanism for moving up the range (unlike the NHS) so you will start at the bottom of the advertised range and there you will stay. Ranges are there to cater to internal candidates moving departments, not external appointees.

We're losing people hand over fist due to low pay - people are moving sideways into other departments for a 10% pay rise and no promotion, why wouldn't they?

I'm a civil servant.

The problem with outsiders applying for SEO roles is that they bring no job knowledge or with them into the role as opposed to if they had been promoted from HEO or EO. A lot of civil service jobs are quite niche and specialised and require knowledge that you only pick up once you're in the job.

So you will be managing career EOs and HEOs who likely don't want promotion themselves but equally don't want to be bossed around by someone who knows Jack about the job and has to be mentored themselves.

Have you considered going in as an EO and then getting promotion internally? I know people who have spent only their probation period as an EO and then were SEO and higher in 2 years.

Exactly. There are some unique aspects to working in government departments that external applicants might not necessarily understand. You might have the soft skills to carry out certain tasks but having a general “good” application won’t be enough to secure a CS job. Eg if the job spec talks about briefing ministers, they want to hear about that direct experience vs something you might think is an equivalent

I joined the civil service recently at G7 and have so far been involved in recruiting twice more at G7 and at SEO/HEO, as well as internal secondment decisions.

so far the only consistent thing I have noted is that every panel does things differently. They’re not objective and then when we had an entire interview round that scored only 3s (not a surprise when we’re paying significantly under the market rate for that skill, and the advert was a load of generic waffle), we had to then go through and work out which ones we could make 4.

I’ve been keeping an eye on CS vacancies for a while, nothing on this thread is making me want to apply though! And there were a few threads last month about more and more CS departments wanting staff in at least 3 days per week? I think I’ll stay put for a while longer …

I'm a civil servant too...just waiting to begin my new HEO role (currently EO)
Honestly it's a numbers game

I copied and pasted answers for different job applications and scored a 3 from one department and a 5 from another...for the exact same paragraph...

It is the most frustrating process in the world but you've just got to stick with it
This round of interviewing I submitted 8 applications, had 4 interviews and 1 offer
My new role is a promotion but only a fixed term contract. Already dreading doing this again in a year 😂

Fair point. I know my friend is not in any way interested in progression

I know the CS is large and varied so not sure where you’re applying to, but the CS department I used to work at, majority of higher level grades the jobs seemed to go to people through nepotism

Have you considered your copy and pasted answers were better geared to one of those roles than the other?

Possibly...but all very similar roles with pretty vague job descriptions!

To answer the admin questions - sorry I mean administration type roles - Board Secretary etc. I’m a Band 5 EA in the NHS and working with Board level directors. I’ve got extensive experience working on PM, and am midway through a PRINCE2 as well and this role I’m currently in I’ve stepped down to - but lots of really useful tips thank you for all taking the time

OP are you IT PM or business?

i only have to be at work once every two weeks and always pick up drop off my kids

i can send you details of where I work (they recruiting quite a bit) if you tell me what sort of Pm you’re are x

Firstly don’t apply to private secretary jobs as an external. Your chances will be very limited as you generally get someone who’s locumed or is on the fast stream into ministerial office roles. Are you speaking to the named contact on the advert?

I also think you’re selling yourself short. Apply for SEOs or G7s if you have that much project management experience. Definitely don’t apply for an EO post if you’re experienced. You might find you do better in the sift at a higher grade.

It will be a numbers game. It hundreds of people are applying it is hard as a recruiter. You might have 250 plus applications. Basically people apply for jobs they don’t want to practice getting their competencies as good as they can be and sometimes you just need to send off as many applications as possible (opposite to most recruitment) to give yourself the best chance numerically. But.. while playing the numbers game you do need to try and find out about individual roles and speak to the recruiting manager for the ones you’re really interested in.

I'm a CS and the recruitment process is shocking from start to finish for both internal and external candidates.

From an internal point of view I can do the job standing on my head in the dark. I can work successfully at least 2 grades out of my current grade, lead a team, respond to change and performance and quality is met. I have the technical experience of the business. But can I write an application, it seems not. I have seen the same thing happen to colleagues so many times over the years.

I can't get through a sift and to be honest I have given up ccompletely. You need to play the game, embellish your application which doesnt sit well with me at all. Your paperwork is sifted by a regular non trained employee, who has done an online course and is totally subjective. I have known people score 3 different scores on the same application and get through a sift for an seo post but not an eo post so go figure that one out.

I feel your pain I really do.