To be utterly demoralised by civil service recruitment?

[MabelMoo23]

I’m currently working in an admin role after stepping down in my career due to husband’s role and family commitments. I’m now trying to improve my situation and am applying to civil service roles.

I know all about success profiles / strengths etc. I’ve researched throughly and I’m applying to HEO roles which are fractionally above what I earn now. My previous salary is that of SEO level, but I appreciate it’s tough to externally get into SEO level.

But I can’t seem to crack it. I’ve had 3 interviews so far, for different roles, two not made it, but one I got onto the reserve list after making it to the final stage and being invited to a “fireside chat”.

that was hard, to get close, but not quite close enough. So I paid for some CS coaching and to be fair, got given some really good tips - for example in STAR saying HOW you did the action bit to get the result, not what.

saw a great role, another HEO, so applied and, 2 of the behaviours were the exact same ones as the role I applied for that I got on the reserve list. I didn’t even get a bloody interview!!! So frustrating. I can’t seem to crack it.

the really frustrating thing is, for a role I ended up on the reserve list for, for this role, my score on two of those identical behaviours was a 3, (all others including CV and experience were a 4). So Which actually really means, that whilst CS recruitment is designed to be “blind” ultimately, the scoring is still subjective. And of course as a result, CS recruitment is still biased to a certain extent, because internal CS staff obviously know how to answer these questions.

but I just can’t crack it. I even paid for a session of coaching, then didn’t even get an interview and I feel utterly demoralised now and wondering if I can even face trying again with different roles. I’ve spent literally hours doing applications, I know for CS you can’t just bang out an application, you have to follow the behaviours in success profiles and give examples. I’ve researched so much, done 3 interviews, tried to learn from feedback and I’m just not cracking it.

I don’t know if it’s even worth bothering trying anymore because I genuinely don’t know what else I can do. Just feel utterly demoralised by it all. Sorry no point to this thread other than a vent

I am just leaving a CS department as their recruitment processes are so flawed. Interviewed 3 years ago for a management role, met the threshold and was offered an interim post with a promise of a permanent post when it became available. 3 years later, after completing said post as an interim I was told I’d need to reapply. Applied for permanent post and did not meet the bar. I’ve done the job successfully for 3 years and my manager was aghast when I never achieved the standard. I was told to get some interview coaching. I decided at that point I no longer wanted the role as all that mattered was how I played the game to jump through the interview hoops and not all the good work I had done in past 3 years. I went for an interview outside of cs and was offered the first job I applied for. I was even commended on my interview technique.

i also took the job in the cs years ago for the flexibility but to be honest the flexibility of the role is now outweighed by the long hours, the impact of being constantly short staffed and the lack of acknowledgment and pay awards.. the dept in which I’m working is haemorrhaging staff. We can’t recruit and we can’t retain. I would rethink your options and see it as dodging a bullet. I can’t wait to leave!!

Where in the country are you? Certain departments have the bulk of their staff in different parts of the country.

Have you actually worked in the CS or is this just your subjective opinion?

what you're describing is the sift process, it isn't a question of they've already decided your face doesn't fit, they review CVs and based on the role specification, decide if you meet the criteria for the role. If you don't, then you get sifted out. If you do, you get an interview, but then they've also selected around 8-12 other candidates who've also got to the interview stage.

Painful but that's how it works. Some departments get hundreds of CVs for a campaign, they have to narrow it down somehow.

I've been on both sides of the desk, I've recruited/interviewed and I've applied for roles. I've seen the appalling CVs, I've interviewed candidates who've absolutely blagged it, who don't have the skills they say they have, but their CV clearly states they have. I've also interviewed really impressive candidates and they do have the edge by being able to give a clear account of their experience, there are no trick questions or "what would you do in x situation" it's now specific to actual past experience, "tell me a time when you did xyz" - no hypotheticals.

I'm currently in the running for a new role and whatever the outcome, I can't grumble about the way I've been treated. I was interviewed on 23 Mar, then I was sent an email from HR last week to say the interview process will continue until mid April and they will give all candidates the outcome by end April.

I did have to do a lot of prep for the interview, much more than for an industry role I've applied for in the past, because it's very formulaic and prescriptive, but that's to increase objectivity not reduce it. Everyone gets their equal chance to give the panel the information they need to make their decision. I'm not aware of being given any favouritism, my face doesn't necessarily "fit" - I have built up a track-record, but if I've flunked the interview process, then I know I won't get the job, so will just have to keep trying.

I don’t know if it’s even worth bothering trying anymore because I genuinely don’t know what else I can do. Just feel utterly demoralised by it all.

In your situation I would do both, try for industry roles but also try CS. I applied for this role I've just interviewed for 10 months ago, and they sifted me out even though I could evidence many years of industry experience! I asked them for feedback about why I was sifted out and they wouldn't tell me. Unfortunately you are only entitled to feedback if you make it to interview.

At the time I thought that was short sighted as it prevents applicants from improving if they don't know why they weren't selected, but that's the process. If they gave everyone feedback at the sift stage, it would really increase inefficiency (which is what CS is always criticised for!).

So I've tried again (different role, different grade, improved CV which was much clearer than myprevious one as to the specific skills/experience I had), and I made the shift this time. It is definitely a numbers game.

Try not to take it personally, even though it feels hard not to.

Easier said that done but I agree with PP - don't take it personally. The recruitment process does make you jump through hoops. It comes down to knowing the right words to say, how to give competency answers, etc. so I don't think your coaching is wasted. Also, if you're applying for jobs across teams/departments, it's a different lead recruiter every time so they bring all their own interpretations to the process. I've had feedback from interviews which I've implemented next time round and it's gone done like a lead balloon 🤷‍♀️ Once you're in, it's easy to move around roles and more choice as you'll have access to internally-advertised roles so I wouldn't rule out applying for something you don't quite fancy as you wouldn't necessarily have to stay in the role a long time.

Apologies if I've misunderstood but private secretary roles are not secretarial/admin unless job title is specifically admin based e.g. diary manager. They are also pretty competitve as private office experience is great for promotion. So, if that was one of the ones where you didn't get an interview, I wouldn't get too hung up on it - might just need to give some different examples.

I'm G6 in the civil service. I enjoy it and one of the main reasons is the flexibility in job, pension, scope to promote, etc.

I echo the suggestion to look at local government. What region are you in?

If you just want some WFH and decent hours there'll be millions of private sector jobs that fit the bill. I have one, so does DH.

Pensions might be lower but salaries are often higher so you could supplement by putting some of your wage into an additional pension?

OP what “admin roles” are you finding at HEO level?!

Look at post office careers. Extremely good pension (8%, they put 12%), sick pay, maternity pay, payrise yearly as under a union, flexible working. It’s public sector but also profit making so slightly different!

I'm a civil servant. I don't really think there's a problem with the process nor does it sound like you are doing anything wrong. It really is just a numbers game. If you are good and keep trying you are likely to be successful. To put it in to context the last post we advertised in my department had over 700 applicants. I really do re it for flexible working. It cannot be beaten in my opinion. I moved to civil service from medicine and do not regret it!

Do you live near a university? They can be good for pension/flexibility.

Thanks all, I live in the Midlands, so yes very close to lots of universities, and yes I’m using LinkedIn - will look at them, as well as the local authority

I will also consider EO roles as well, although I’ve dropped a considerable amount in salary already, going lower isn’t an attractive option for obvious reasons

I'm not sure how close it is to you but you could look at Ofqual that's a non departmental public body in Coventry.

I'd definitely suggest looking at universities too. I'm not sure how the pension compares to the civil service. But they do offer flexible working.

I'm a role that's unfulfilling and isolating too. It's really miserable and draining.

Try WMJobs which is where most LAs advertise. As above, Coventry is home to a lot of governmental bodies. Many LAs have low expectations of office attendance and are very flexible. We recruit from much, much further afield than we used to as a result. If you’ve got PM experience there will be a lot of opportunities out there for you.

What a previous poster said about thinking of all the things you do that you consider absolutely basic, and then imagining you're a new starter trying to impress, is about right.

I can think of a number of junior colleagues who gained promotion to SEO using that technique. I think the system actually discriminates against those who think conceptually, or are able to see the bigger picture.

OTOH, in my corner of the CS it is flexible, lots of holiday, and the work interesting. Good luck OP, whatever path you take.

I am currently at SEO level and I’m recruiting for a post in my team, allbeit internally. Civil service recruitment is a skill in if itself. Like any skill it takes practice to get better at it. Coming in externally is very hard, though it’s not a walk in the park for internal vacancies either.

When it comes to the application read the criteria very, very carefully. Make sure you cover every single part of it. Not nearly all of it - all of it. Everything has to be about what you did so use “I” not “we”. Explain exactly how and why you did things. Those doing the sift can be reading multiple applications. Make it as easy for them as possible to pass you.

Interviews are all competency based and the interviewer should tell you which competency the question is about. Reflect the language in the competency in your answer where you can and again make it all about what/how/why you did things. Use the STARR method but spend as little time as possible on the S and T as they are just context.

As someone else said previously it is a bit of a numbers game. There’s a recruitment freeze just now so external vacancies are very limited. Best of luck.

Just to say op that people within civil service think our recruitment is terrible as well. We really struggle to get enough people into interview for some roles despite some impressive cvs and sometimes people who fly through the process turn out to be not great at the role.

keep at the HEO roles. You will get there. Remember each application is likely sifted by different people so scoring differently using the same example while fustrating and technically shouldn’t happen is an inevitable part of people being human and having different opinions.

Civil servant here. I work in digital in a technical role so may be wrong, but I don’t think private secretary is an admin job!

It's a good point you might be applying for the wrong roles. If you're doing a general admin role now, that is not equivalent to a private secretary in the civil service/ public sector. Obviously can't speak for all roles but it's often a sort of chief of staff type role, an interface between senior person you are working for and ministers, translating policy etc. They are extremely sought after and probably v v competitive. Difficult to say without seeing the actual adverts of course.

Another angle is, a friend of mine got a short term contract via brook Street. After two years she was moved on to a full CS contract without going through full CS recruitment (I don't know full details but I know she definitely didn't have to apply for her job ).

Also if you come from a PM background have you looked at project roles? There is no statute of limitations on experience, you could be giving examples from 10 years ago in your answers.

I feel the same OP I've just failed to get the SEO version on my job, that I'd actually been doing for 18 months & now I'm training someone else to do it!
Absolutely gutted!

I would say keep going because you will get an HEO role eventually! But totally get why you would look elsewhere!

Getting in without the full recruitment process is a mixed blessing as many internal roles are only open to people who joined through ‘fair and open competition’. Just something to be aware of.

Do you mean PA roles rather than private secretary? PA roles can be HO but Private Secretary is SCS.

You commented earlier about different scores for the same examples for different job applications. Are you tweaking your application to match the job you're applying for each time? Sifters can tell when it's an application that's being used for lots of jobs.

There is a big difference between general a
NHS admin jobs and the band that you are going for in the CS, Op.

I’m currently finding CS recruitment really hard to crack. I’ve applied for about 15 jobs and only got 1 interview and should find out the result this week 🤞 Irony is, I used to work there 21 years ago and the interview was a piece of piss. I think they’ve changed it majorly since then.

I don't want to disappoint anyone but after years of doing competency interviews, STAR etc then the civil service is now moving to hypotheticals as part of success profiles which they use to recruit. This was something I hadn't seen before but is a factor in interviews now.