Issues with my Union Rep - WWYD?

[Namechanged75]

I have been employed in my current place of work for over 20 years- always received excellent performance appraisals and had an excellent attendance record. Until now. I am currently facing disciplinary measures related to overpayment following a long term sickness absence (which followed a prolonged period of bullying from a new line manager).

Unfortunately my Trade Union rep has been very poor. I know he does this in a voluntary capacity (for which I am obviously grateful) and his job has been very pressured but it has been very difficult. He doesn’t answer calls or emails, doesn’t provide advice, he didn’t forward me the ToR and other correspondence from the investigation team nor did he pass on the final report until after the deadlines for me to reply.

Fortunately I managed to agree an extension on the final response but it has added to the pressure of an already difficult situation.

He has also responded to the bullying in a pretty dismissive and what I consider to be unprofessional way. It is not an understatement to say that the bullying was for me life changing - it left me suicidal and broken. Anyway it is done now and I need to see if I can rebuild my life.

I have a final disciplinary meeting coming up ( I could potentially loose my job) and have been nervous about a lot of things including him being my rep. I emailed the Trade Union to see if I might be able to be supported by someone else but they said no - that I should stick with him. They have said I could formally complain to the secretary general but I am unsure what to do. I think they are all pretty close and won’t look favourably on a complaint but I am scared that if I stick with him I may regret it. What would you do?

I used to be a workplace rep and I only got 10% time to do it- and I had no professional qualifications. It sounds like your case is way too complicated for your workplace rep and it should be referred to the full time officer. Call the TU in person. They have access to employment lawyers also. Complicated cases can take over your life as a TU rep and it's not fair the TU expect someone to do that without their backup.

And think about the outcome you want here. Do you want to keep this job or have relations soured so much you would be happy to leave with a compromise agreement? Whether it's fair or not if someone wants you out, it's not a great environment in which to work. And then work back from the outcome you want to think about strategy.

I cannot tell you how many people I repped who started off wanting to take the employer to the cleaners and ended up happy to leave with a compromise agreement (which doesn't mean you 'admit guilt') and a reference. Which is totally their prerogative of course - but it would have saved a lot of grief and stress to think about it earlier.

Bypass this person altogether. Contact your local union branch secretary and request they take your case up. Explain to the branch secretary exactly what the difficulties are with current 'rep'. All reps are volunteering but most are properly trained rather than being a contact. Yours sounds like a contact and not trained.

I'm not going to give away a confidence, and it would perhaps be outing. But I know the union. Let's say that those who know unions would perhaps consider "union" a bit of a stretch. A union that often acts more like a staff association. So getting a better rep may not be as easy as it might be in some of our unions.

I am a union rep too and I completely agree with @Quveas - there is no way I would agree to something I hadn't done.

Can you tell your rep you understand why he's advising you and the consequences but you simply cannot and will not agree that any of it was your fault at all?

Thank you for your replies- I am very grateful. I am still waiting for a response from the Secretary General to my request for a different union rep . Just hoping he responds before the disciplinary meeting. I would prefer not to go in unsupported - but may have to? My mental health practitioner has offered to support me - do you think that would be reasonable/helpful? I am worried that if I stay with this rep he may try to reach an agreement that isn't what I want/ or undermine what I am saying? He is clearly very annoyed that I have asked to switch and is a very strong character - any emails I do get are very terse etc.

In response to a previous poster we haven't had a discussion about the outcome - other than him saying that he thinks I will get a final written warning which I am worried about (for reasons others have previously said).

I am clearer now in my head that I cannot agree to something that isn't true-even if there are consequences. Seems obvious now but when someone is so strongly opinionated I kind of go along thinking they must be right?

To be honest I am really freaked out about all of this (no-one other than my MH support to speak to about it in real life) - trying to get medical reports from by GP surgery has been a nightmare (my GP has left so someone else has eventually done it but its not as detailed as I had hoped, fortunately the psych report is a bit better but covers a later period) but as other posters have said I know you need to be strong and resilient to get through these kinds of thing. My medication has been increased so hopefully I will start sleeping better and that always helps. Thanks again for all your advice- it is much appreciated.

You can ask for someone else to accompany you but they don't have to agree. In law it is a trade union rep or work colleague.

I can see no feasible reason why the union have not responded. This is unacceptable. You should look up your unions complaints process, and I'm also going to say it again - you can take legal advice without telling the union for now. It may be a good idea to get an alternative opinion.

Thank you for the messages I have received. I have been called to a disciplinary meeting next week. Am still waiting on a response from the Trade Union about changing my representative (I was told the only way to do so was to put in a formal complaint). I keep chasing them for a response.

In the meantime I have asked my employer if the mental health worker can support me by way of a reasonable adjustment - waiting on the response (keeping my fingers crossed as I really don't want to do it alone). It's so scary - am not sleeping/very anxious but know I need to be strong and get through it. Thank you again for all the advice- I am very grateful.

I know this won't be helpful right now, but I'll say it anyway. Whatever the outcome here and now, get yourself hence to another union when this is over. I'm in Unite, who have balls! I won't claim every rep is perfect - no organisation of any sort is. But this spigot not be tolerated, and our GS would be on top of such blatantly awful service.

I am going to assume that your union won't be supporting you in the meeting so...

It is not lawful to secretly record meetings or other conversations which you intend to share with someone else, such as a court. I would never suggest that anyone do anything unlawful. If they are uncomfortable with such things. And I definitely never recorded the conversations I had with the bitch from hell (otherwise known as my previous manager). I certainly didn't do that for nearly a year. And the Director decided he didn't want to go to a tribunal all on his own without (much) prompting. I'm going to assume you understood that paragraph and will very certainly not do (or get caught doing) anything I wouldn't....

Before you go in make a bullet point list of your defence. Make it succinct e.g. "I provided fit note to my immediate line manager in my workplace as I was told to. At no time did anyone suggest this was not appropriate." Do not get pulled into arguments and don't ad lib. Give the same answer repeatedly. Emphasise that you have complied with policy and processes and at no time did any manager inform you otherwise. Again, don't elaborate and don't ad lib - stick to basic repetitive facts. Don't get pulled into explaining yourself. Your only explantation is that you did as you were expected to do and nobody disputed that. If they claim they couldn't contact you, again, very simple answer is that they have had all your contact details for xx years and could have contacted you at any time.

Do not apologise. Ever. You didn't do anything wrong. Your defence starts and ends at that fact - you did nothing wrong.

You know I think they're out to get you. I don't know why, but I've explained how they may well do it, and I think even your union rep knew. They probably won't dismiss this time, but go to a final warning and then try to get you on capacity or some minor infringement. I'll be delighted if that isn't true and they quite rightly dismiss the allegations. But I'll also be surprised.

So you need to think about next steps. What did your legal advice say? I'd probably be looking at a compromise agreement by now. They don't want you back, that much is clear. And you can't possibly ever trust them again. If there was a possible settlement, in terms of future employment, what would you be thinking of, what are the prospects, and what barriers do you think might be in place?

Thank you all for your responses- I have messaged some privately , and am very, very grateful. I won't ever forget the help given - thank you.

The Union finally responded today (nearly three weeks after my complaining/asking to change reps - disciplinary meeting is next week) to say they won't agree to a different rep , to work with the current one. I am still waiting to hear from my employer about whether I can have one of my mental health team present.

I am unsure what to do about the rep. He has been so difficult and not on the ball but a part of me thinks its better to go with someone rather than no one?- but then I really don't want to feel pressured by him to agree to something that isn't true just to make it easier / in the off chance that they might issue a final written warning rather than sack me (which is what they clearly want to do). I think I'd rather just stick to the facts and take any outcome. So perhaps best to go alone? With him present I feel very nervous about being pushed into something that isn't right/ not being able to say my piece. We haven't spoken about the outcome that I'd like he has just emailed me with his views- which I am grateful for (I know he does this voluntarily) but what he says is not always accurate/ I don't agree with the approach which I try to say but he ignores .....

I answered your PM, but I will repeat the gist here. The only basis I would agree to him being there is if he accepts that you have no intention of pleading guilty to something you did not do; or if you decide to say you did it. Having a rep who is making a case other than the one you want made is worse than having no rep at all. So I would put the terms of that in an email to him. He may be right that they only intend to give a final warning (and I would lay bets that that isn't because they are being kind - under no circumstances could I enviage a court of law seeing anything you have done as misconduct of any type), but that is not the point. You do not plead guilty when you are innocent because you get a "lower sentence" - that is plain nuts! And risky because once you have said you did it, you are guilty by your own admission! I would be clear that you have listened to his advice but you will not say you are guilty of doing something wrong when you haven't, so that will be your position and you expect him to comply with that. If he cannot then you want him to say so now. You have management after your blood - why go into a meeting with a rep who is worse than they are?

Contact your union HQ and ask their lawyer to take on your case. That is why you pay union fees.

Sorry if this has been covered. I'd also be very clear about how the rep has treated you.

In any union you can't just demand a lawyer takes your case. It isn't why you pay your union fees. You will only get legal assistance if you are referred through the union officers to a lawyer AND if there is a reasonable prospect of success. But the OP has been in contact with their "union" as they have said and the union has refused other representation. I use the term union loosely because I would consider it more of a staff association than a union anyway, and such organisations are often weak.

"Contact your union HQ and ask their lawyer to take on your case. That is why you pay union fees."

*"Ask" doesn't mean demand. That wasn't my point.

If it is a union, then OP pays her fee for union support. It would be reasonable to expect to speak to local secretary or national officer for legal advice, at the very least!!!

Thank you. You are, of course, completely right and I am very grateful for your advice (as I hope you know).

I think I just got nervous - all the advice seems to be that you must have union representation when it’s so serious and I’ve never been in a situation like this before, but the rep seems to be causing me more worry and stress than the employer. I cannot and will not agree to something I didn’t do. I just need to remain focused during the meeting on saying what did happen and not allow my nerves to get the better of me/chat just to fill awkward silences.

I will also email the rep as you say , being clear that whilst I have listened to his advise that I have no intention of pleading guilty to something I did not do, and I expect him to comply with that or I will go in I represented.

Thanks again for all your help. I am sorry for bothering you and if I have been a bit all over the place.

Thank you. I did ask HQ if I could change representatives but they came back today and said no. As the meeting is next week I thought I should probably stay with them now now but have had a wobble about whether that is the correct thing to do. I am going to email as pp suggested and make it clear that I won't be agreeing to anything that isn't true (in the hope that I would get a final written warning rather than dismissal).

I wish I could ask to speak to a lawyer through them (I'm told the costs of any ET will be huge- over £30k) but as they won't let me change rep I've got no chance.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I’m not an expert on this sort of thing but I do have a fair bit of hr experience.

If you choose not to have the union rep you can choose to have a colleague with you instead. They can’t refuse this request.

Is there anyone working at a reasonably senior level (ideal option would be more senior than your boss but not in their line management or working in a different area) who you know well enough that you could tell them what’s happening and ask them to support you?

Thank you. I did consider asking another staff member to attend but the meeting is early next week so I don't think I would be able to give people sufficient notice now. It was disappointing that the union only came back today (I asked nearly three weeks ago) but I suppose I should have been more decisive and made alternative arrangements myself. Fortunately my mental health professional will be available for support. I just need to get on with it and hope I don't get too anxious/make a mess.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Sending you a HH and

In another union I would agree. But the OP had given a fairly detailed account already as to how that hadn't worked.

OP, if it comes to it, it's possible to represent oneself at a tribunal. People can do it and win. I won't say it's easy, but it can be done. However, as I said, I have a horrible feeling that you won't get sacked for this. It'd be too easy to construct an unfair dismissal case. I think they'll go for a final warning. Because then they only need one small slip to dismiss fairly. I'm an experienced union rep, but I'm also a senior manager. So I can say with certainty that if I wanted to find one small slip in the best member of my staff, I could. Nobody is perfect.

My worry is that they are not stupid but strategic. But we need to see how this plays out and take it from there. We may all be wrong and they'll see sense and back off.

Thank you all very much - I am really grateful.

I had the meeting today and my employers have concluded that I am guilty of gross misconduct , claiming my sick absence was not authorised and I am to be dismissed. They acknowledged that I did inform my line manager in the organisation I was on loan to (as per the loan agreement) and that the loan organisation did receive my fit notes , however they said I should have informed my home organisation (despite my not being told to do so at any point). They also doubted that I was unwell for the whole time (despite having medical reports from my GP and Psychiatrist that say I was unwell).

I think I am in a bit of shock. I did ask the Union Rep about whether I could now get legal advice through the Union but apparently it's still too early - you need to wait until appeal procedures have been exhausted (which can take a while). I'm not sure my mental health could cope such a long wait - knowing options would be helpful but I'm trying not to take any actions today until it has all settled in. Just feels so shocking.

Thanks again for all the advice and support that has been given.

I’m so sorry to hear that. Don’t try to make any decisions tonight - just look after yourself for today and give it some time to sink in before you make any plans xx

Does your house insurance cover you for legal fees relating to employment?

I'm so sorry to read your update

Thank you for your replies. I am grateful. My house insurance (with m&s) does include legal fees relating to employment issues. I'm not quite sure how it works (assume they have in-house lawyers) but could give them a call.

It's so scary. I've been employed by them for so long - part of my identity?