Over 6 months sick-Can I get sacked?

[Karry74]

Hi all, appreciate anyone reading this and any advice you can give. Will try to keep it brief.

I've been off sick with depression, stress and anxiety for over 5 months due to personal and work related issues. Tried 2 different antidepressants which I couldn't get on with, now on an SSRI which I have taken in the past, but the side effects are relentless. It took around 6 months to work previously, been on it around 2 months at this point. Also taking propranolol for panic attacks. Barely left my flat in 5 months, almost to the point of agoraphobia. No desire to be around other people and purposely wait until later in the day when there are fewer people around to carry out basic chores like food shopping.

Spoke with occupational health once in the time I've been off. Made it clear that aside from personal factors, my current place of work is a major source of my mental health issues. This was 2 months ago. I asked not to have this on medical report, as I would explain this to line manager directly.

So a few days ago, finally speak to manager, mentioned aside from personal issues, it's also work related. She says this is the first we're hearing of it as it wasn't on your med report. Asked what the work related issues are, I remained tight lipped, said it was not the shifts or the work, simply a number of people I have to work with. It's a highly, highly toxic environment and I've been psychologically bullied, have confronted individuals myself rather than get management involved, but that failed. If I returned in my current mental state, I would have a panic attack, do a 180 and go straight back off. She explained unless we know which specific work related issues you have we can't make adaptations which would benefit you. A transfer to another location or different role seems highly unlikely.

In a few weeks I have a meeting with a higher up manager and an HR rep. If I tell them aside from personal factors, it's also work related, will I have to divulge everything? I've stayed tight lipped because I don't need the additional stress of grievances etc, and I know that no matter what adaptations are made, I would still have to work alongside these individuals.

After 6 months I get half pay and can't survive on that. Occupational health suggested severance may be considered if I feel I'm not well enough. Even if I got a transfer/another role, I fear my mental state and medication would force me back out of work. Can they sack me for any reason or would that be unfair dismissal? I'm not with a union so will not have a rep with me. I want to be well again and able to work, but can't put a time frame on when. I've considered paying for therapy if I'm entitled to severance, after 18 years at this company it should be enough for me to live on until getting ontop of my mental health and applying for new jobs.

Sorry if this is a long post, sincerely appreciate any advice.

Yes, they can sack you on the grounds of capability if you’re not able to do the job. The normal process would involve a series of meetings and warnings that if you’re not able to return to work then your employment may be at risk. It doesn’t sound like you’re a good fit for the company - if there was one person you found difficult to work with they might be able to make adjustments, but you describe a number of people you find difficult. Realistically, what can they do to turn it into a role you can do?

How do you expect them to help you if you don't tell them everything that's going on?

I can’t quite understand what you want , if your issues were with your work environment then surely you should have been telling OH that a long time ago so there was an opportunity to do something about it before the half pay kicked in .

This.

Sadly only telling half a story won't help you or your company. As harsh as it is open and honest all the way.

where I work it’s 6 months off then if you’re not back it would be the capability route. How long can they keep paying you sick pay? It sounds awful and I sympathise but you need to look at ways to get back to work or find another job. The issues can’t be resolved if you won’t discuss what the problem is.

Hi there I’m sorry you are feeling this way. What would be your ideal scenario in terms of the work situation? I’m struggling to understand why you don’t feel able to have an honest conversation about how you feel about work and be specific as nothing is likely to change if you don’t highlight what the issues are and what outcome you need to return to and stay in work. Your employer has a duty of care towards your well-being but can only do something if they know what is causing the work related issues and you are not giving them an opportunity to help you. I don’t know where you work or what your policies are but given what you’ve described there may a case to dismiss on capability grounds. Did OH make any recommendations in their report?

Are you on income protection insurance? If so, what are
the terms? Ie for whole long, own occupation etc?

they can dismiss for capability.

a pay off sounds like a good idea tbh

OP I'm sorry for what you are going through but you are shooting yourself in the foot, that absolutely should have been on the Occ Health report and they do need to know in order to support you. They can't help if you won't tell them what is wrong

If the issue is primarily the people you work with, I think the only choice you have is to get a new job. I don’t think there's much the workplace can do for you now.

Find another job if the current one is toxic

Gosh, yes, of course you can be sacked due to capability. Six months off on full pay is generous. You must, must flag up the workplace stressors. You have damaged your position by not mentioning it. But I think you need to look for another job.

When your sick pay runs out, what's your plan?

Of course they can, and, I’m trying to say this kindly, especially if you’re not helping to mitigate the situation. Why on earth you never spoke to management, but kept getting to the point where you go off sick again, frankly leaves them at a brick wall. Surely you can see this.

I can't see why you'd want to go back? Surely looking for another job has got to be better than putting yourself through this. It would also be better for your employer, they could crack on and replace you.

Their responsibility is to try and help you back to work, if that is not possible then yes they can dismiss you (obviously this has to be done properly otherwise it could be unfair dismissal). If you disclose that work is part of the problem, but refuse to give any detail to allow them the possibility of addressing it, I think you’d essentially be giving them a free pass to dismiss you because you’d be presenting them with an unsolvable problem.

Sounds like you work for a large employer - they should have a clear policy on long term sickness, including severance/dismissal options. If you haven’t seen this you should ask to see it before your next meeting.

Even though you’re not in a union, it is good practice (not compulsory) for your employer to allow you to be accompanied to any formal meetings. If you think this would benefit you, then request it.

Do you know what outcome you want? Do you want to try and go back, or would severance be better for you?

You say yourself that you don't think they can make adaptations for you to be able to return to work, and that you don't want to help them do so by offering more information. Which sounds to me like you are saying that given these circumstances you will not be capable to do the job. The company do have to treat you fairly, but they can dismiss you if you cannot do the role.

You have been very (very!) fortunate to get 6 months at full pay.

I think it is your choice - work with them to see if there is a feasible route back (not guaranteed), or choose to go now.

I'm guessing it's local government or other public sector with that sick pay set up?

We’d be sacked ultimately the business can’t support that level of absence and it would affect the ability for it to function

If you have occupational / company such pay they'd be foolish to try to dismiss before it runs out - but they can start the process.

I agree with others. If you won't do or say anything to substantiate serious allegations against others, then you can't expect them to do anything. You can't simply demand what you want and get it for no reason other than you say so. Which is what you are saying to them if you refuse to co-operate.

There's another risk here potentially. If you make unsubstantiated allegations and refuse to co-operate, they could consider disciplining you. Look at it from their point of view - you are alleging serious wrongdoing by unspecified colleagues in unspecified ways, and that creates a pretty awful work environment if you aren't telling the truth - and you are refusing to say why you are making the allegations or against whom. And at the same time you want them to fix it. That's pretty unreasonable.

I do understand that it's difficult, and scary. But you need to tell them what the problem is. Or you need to stick to its personal stuff and leave out the work issues.

The only other possibility that I can think of, which may be worth exploring, is voluntary redeployment (assuming you are public sector, which you may be). That means you volunteer to be moved to another post if one becomes available within a certain time frame. But the risk is that if it doesn't there is no going back and you could end up redundant. That may also be complicated if you aren't fit enough to take up the role, as redeployment is often almost immediate.

Is there a reason you can't join a union now?
I definitely would.
Yes you can ultimately be sacked if your employer has followed through the steps in the procedure to show they have done what they can to support you to return to work and you are not fit to complete full job role due to Ill health.

But I think you are a little way off that yet.
Have you been sent a copy of your works sickness abence/wellbeing policy?
If not, contact HR and ask for one. This will describe the steps they have to go through.
Also ask your boss for another OH review prior to the next meeting.

And yes, you will need to go in to the specifics of the issues others have caused you at work, and how even if addressed with the individuals, you feel unable to return to current role/post as it will make/keep you unwell.
Ask OH about redeployment on medical grounds and how that works in your company.
Definitely do join a union!

Good luck

Is there a reason you can't join a union now?
I definitely would.
Common practice is that a union won't represent you on any situation that has already started before you join. Some unions may give some minimal advice, but seldom more than that. Why would they? You can't take out insurance when the fire had already started.

Yes, there is often a waiting or qualifying period before they get fully involved for existing issues, but given that this situational not be resolved anytime soon I would imagine its worth exploring

Yes. 6 months is a long time. As there's no foreseeable return to work they will go down capability and you will be let go most likely

I was in a similar position a few years ago. Without knowing the details of your current situation of course - but I was bullied relentlessly by a new manager and new colleagues who wanted me out of my position, so they could hire someone for a lot less money (there were 3 of us in the same situation). I had a breakdown after 2 years.

My advice would be to tell HR absolutely everything. Before you have your meeting diarise everything. Dates/months of issues. Who said what etc.

Seek a local employment solicitor - and see if you can get an hours free advice.

If you can go into your meeting with evidentiary support, stating that you have also sought legal advice, because of your current mental state, they will have no choice but to 1) take your situation very seriously and 2) put a plan in place to make your entry back into the workplace as easy as possible.

if you don’t want to continue working there, then I would still advise the above - your solicitor should be able to give you some good advice.

Good luck x