Flexible working refused (despite role being advertised as flexible) - County Council

[gingerbreadtits]

Can anyone please tell me what "flexible working will be considered for this position" means if the hours and work place setting are non negotiable?

I have applied for two "open to flexible working" roles at the local Council and been offered both roles only to find out that the role is 37 hours and on site only.

So what does "flexible" actually mean? Has anyone negotiated part time hours with the Council before? I want to do 30 hours.

(No support here and our wraparound care is often cancelled by the school at last minute)

I'm even happy to pick up the additional 7 hours in the evenings WFH but this too isn't allowed despite both being "flexible" roles.

They have a full web page dedicated to how amazing they are as employers (term time only, part time, compressed hours, WFH, hot decking etc etc!). Theyve attended all the career fairs to encourage people to apply for roles. They have advertising on buses about "flexible working" & and keep whining about a skills shortage!

I'm confused - so what is flexible working in the public sector? 😁

Sounds pretty crap OP
i think it’s often down to the individual manager and team and obviously the recruitment campaigns are put together at a higher level. I suppose it will also come down to how much they want/need you.

i have worked for local councils and at the last place secured a part time term time contract working 9-2 Monday to Thursday term time only. I couldn’t have done the evening working thing but they were flexible between about 8am and 6pm and open to part time and alternative working patterns.

Just to say as well that it can often be easier to already be working somewhere and then request a change to hours, rather than secure it from the offset. Maybe partly because then they know you, know you’re a good worker etc

In my experience of the public sector it means that this particular line manager/team want someone who is full time.

But there’s either a standard job description template or a policy which says you have to include a line stating that the role is open to flexible working.

So they advertise it on that basis and then just hope that the successful applicant wants to work full-time standard hours.

@ClaudiaWankleman it's not there to be working and looking after dc at the same time. If you need to do the afternoon school run flexi working would be for you to start earlier so you can finish earlier. Not to pop out and do the school run and then continue working with dc at home.

That’s exactly what I do now on some days and it works fine as I save tasks I can do with the kids in the house and they are of an age where they need collecting and it’s better for me to be there but they can be self sufficient

This - the advertisements are usually generic and state what patterns exist over the whole organisation. That isn't the same thing as having a right to it for all roles. If a role requires fixed hours, fixed location etc, then that is what is required. SOmetimes it's a case of "last in" - if others who already work there have chosen other patterns, all that may be left to cover a service may be specific times and places.

I would ask as soon as you see a job advertised.....a lot of roles where they are struggling to recruit do allow a lot of flexibility...so it depends...flexible usually means start/end times /hybrid/wfh depending on role/Council..and service as well.less hours are either compressed or part-time..
.although i just got offered a full-time role and wanted part time so asked when offered the role.. 4days not 5 ...make sure its written in the contract too!

I find it so frustrating that they use generic adverts though, rather than just being clear whether or not that job actually is suitable for flexible working. And if so, what patterns are realistic e.g. part-time but no less than 30 hours per week, hybrid but minimum 40% in the office etc.

Op I would put something brief together showing how you could complete the specification in the work pattern you want including the additional hours in the evening. It is absolutely ridiculous that a back office, non time sensitive role has to be done during core hours in an office.
People saying compressed hours and part time are not flexible working are completely wrong. Honestly! Employers need to wise up if they want the best candidates. Work is an activity not a place.

Update: they've offered the role to me part time! (30 hours)

😁😁😁

The role was advertised as full time 37 hours but they just said "it doesn't make sense to anyone, as our full time is 35 hours a week"

I had to laugh!

Flexible working to me would be start and finish earlier/later, but still do 37hrs in the office.

I would not class remote/hybrid working or PT as part of "flexible" working and would expect them to be mentioned specifically if applicable to the role.

In the NHS I agree. I was told the needs of the service come first and I had six months to arrange childcare so I would be expected to cover ad hoc district nursing shifts from 7 am to 10pm. I couldn't.
So after 13 years had to leave.

I’m private sector but flexible working for me is do 37 hours a week, however you want to, from wherever you want to. I do drop DC at nursery and collect him, make dinner, do a couple of hours after he has gone to bed etc. I can work from my home, office, I’ve even gone on a UK holiday and worked from there for one day when I didn’t have enough annual leave to cover it. Obviously there are times I have to attend meetings in person but flexible working can certainly mean very flexible, not just varying start and finish times in one block. I do have to complete a time card though so that keeps us honest.

Glad you've made some headway with them OP!
Just wanted to add my experience. I work in LG in what is mainly a back office function but we occasionally do some public facing stuff.

Pre covid we were expected to be in the office 80% of time, and home working days were closely monitored. Flexi time keeping sheets were also regularly checked.

During covid we went 100% remote working and then also had a change in team leader. We work really flexibly now. As long as we get our work done she really doesn't care when or where we do it. We are a high performing team, and if the service needs us to work outside of contracted hours, we'll all do it as we are given such a good amount of flexibility the rest of the time! Also, if we are needed to travel, again we'll do it.

So it can happen, but as others have said, is very dependent on your role, and your manager!

Flexible working doesn't usually include part-time working. It's also very unusual to start a job and then immediately ask to reduce or change hours; you need to check if they're open to a 30-hour week before interview and then negotiate the fine detail if you're offered the job.

Good news!

I think that to work less hours it would have been advertised as considering part time. But having offered you the job, I'm surprised they're not saying yes! It's not much less. And they've gone to all the expense and effort of advertising and interviewing.

@CatJumperTwat flexible working absolutely includes part time working.

I'd still go to the other interview in the private sector - see which one feels better!

I previously had a job in the public sector. Advertised as flexi, contract stated flexible working hours. Not customer facing. I then started the role and on my first day was told by my manager ‘I know you are on a flexi contract but my staff work 9-5 unless there’s an emergency which means you have to work slightly different times’ total bollocks. The fact it was flexi time was what attracted me! I left and got something else that is actually flexi, so I can log on between 7am-12pm and finish between 3pm-8pm. I can also take a longer break in the middle of the day and make up the time later as long as I log my time and do my hours.
It’s much better work life balance. I think a lot of it depends on the management.

Flexi working at my council is very team dependent.
My team allowed me to be part time and we are currently allowed to WFH, and hours completed at any time of the day. However my contract place of work would not be changed from the office so at any time I could be called back in full time...

Sorry, not full time, but all hours in the office

when I worked for the council it meant having core hours in the office (10-12 and 2-4) and the rest of the contracted hours could be slotted in around these core hours

That's my experience of flexible working too.

I'm slightly confused by some of the responses. Flexitime is not the same flexible working. The former is some flexibility about start and finish times. The latter is absolutely meant to be broader flexibility.

Flexi-time or a core hours based system does not require a big advertising campaign!

Flexible working for me, in the public sector, has meant having an agreed number of hours and flexibility in how I met them. There was scope for new starters to negotiate hours or part time/job share options. Someone agreeing to 25 hours a week would have flexibility to decide whether that would be spread over 5 days, condensed into 3, or something else.

There was no issue taking a short lunch break and then doing the school run at 3/3:30pm, then carrying on working. It was obviously not okay to collect a 4/5 year old and pretend to carry on working. But it was okay if the child was old enough to entertain themselves or another parent returned home to take over at 4/4:30pm. It was okay to work from home for deliveries or because it meant a whole morning/day wasn't needed for a medical appointment. There were staff on term time only contracts paid pro rata over the year so the same pay each month. There were staff who worked one pattern term time (e.g. 9-3 for 5 days a week) and then a different pattern in school holidays (e.g. 8-6 for 3 days a week).

It was possible to take some time off in the afternoon to take care of a sick toddler sent home from nursery, and then catch up on that work in the evening.

Just some examples. But basically it was about having flexibility to manage your time, as an adult, with a focus on outputs and not presenteeism. It's an ethos and working environment, not about clocks. There was only an issue of work didn't get done or, for example, someone who'd said they'd work 9-5 was inexplicably never available after 3pm. Staff were trusted. It worked well.

It was very different from core hours based flexi-time which can still involve presenteeism based management!