Can you get rid of someone for no real reason ?

[sevensongs]

We have 2 staff members at loggerheads bringing the whole team down. Morale is at all time low. Staff A been with us 5 years, Staff B for 9 months (passed probation at 6 months).
Both staff perform well but cannot work together, Everything has been tried to address the situation but it's hopeless.

Obviously A has employment rights but no real reason to sack B, but really it would be best if one of them left. There are no protected characteristics for either of them.

At my wits end so could I just say to B that it's not working out?

I think godmum56 does talk alot of sense. You need to support A in suprevising B as well as the wider team.

The only thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that by doing so you'll see if A"s behaviour changes towards B. As there seems to be issues with given tasks, focus on how tasks are distributed fairly across the team. Especially there are tasks that can/ shuld be done by all team members.

People do have preferences and it could be that A gives a disproportionate amount of "unpopular" tasks to B.
Also, double check that A is confident in doing all tasks and procedures that need to be done by her team.

Doublecheck that B doesn't have any health issues/disabilities/anything that could be regarded as a Protected Characteristic before making any decision about firing; you don't want a tribunal claim.

It would be very easy to dismiss B, with less than two years service she cannot make a claim for unfair dismissal, so you would just need to tell her. So long as you give her proper notice, she cannot claim wrongful dismissal either.

There is an exception to the two year minimum for an unfair dismissal case if there is discrimination. And I did notice you mention age quite a lot which did not sit well with me. I feel this is just as inappropriate as if you had said A is white and B is black and then gone onto explaining that they don’t get on.

Whilst it would legally be relatively straightforward to dismiss B, it also doesn’t feel right to me. It seems like there are two people causing an issue here and A is showing poor skills particularly if you see her as a future manager and the only way you can help her manage is to dismiss anybody that she doesn’t get along with.

Have you sat them down individually to find out what's going on? It sounds like there is an issue on both sides - A and B don't like each other, that doesn't make B the problem, A is just as much of a problem. B doesn't like being told what to do by someone younger (not unusual) and A isn't mature enough to handle it by the sounds of it.

Performance is not just about doing your job properly, it's about the behaviours people display. That means you too! Being the sort of manager who quickly looks to dismiss people to solve a problem is not a good thing. As has already been pointed out, it's a bad role model to give a management trainee.

I suspect A is aware that you consider them to be indispensable and is taking advantage of that. Remember this: absolutely no one is indispensable at all. If they leave, it may be difficult for a short while but it will be fine and often a change of face helps freshen things up.

A and B need to know the clear expectations of the level of behaviour expected from them both. B in terms of this is what the company expects and otherwise it could be a performance management issue and what support do they need. A in terms of what's expected as a management trainee and some coaching and support from you to handle it. There will be plenty more Bs in their future so they need to learn to deal with it.

I can tell you're out of your management depth on this. Management is easy until you come across a grotty problem with this - however we've all had a first grotty problem to deal with and it really does get easier. Also all these sorts of problems are unique anyway so there's no manual - I think over time you learn to be less phased by them but each situation needs its own thinking and solution!

Do you have support from your own LM or are you the top of the chain? You could probably do with a mentor of some sort to help you out if you are. Would strongly recommend you get one. If there is someone above you make sure you manage upwards and get some support from them.

Have you asked for training for yourself OP in managing staff? You might find it helpful to be able to discuss the scenario with fellow managers/HR professionals.

Is B aware of how precarious her situation is? What have they both said in response to challenge about their respective behaviour? Is there a capability policy that could be followed which centres on their relationship with each other?

The reason that employer have 2 years to get rid of people without come ack is for this precise reason.

Don't give B time to put grievances in, tell B it is not working out for them in this role and let them go. Pay the amount left in their notice period and remove them from the role immediately.

You don't have to make a song and dance about it, if they are not able to take being given work by the person that is giving hem work then they cannot do the job.

I don't like the sound of A trying to toe things up by saying that there is no point in talking to B about this, anymore. It sounds like she knows she has most of the team in her side and is being over-confident. A should be able to talk to a junior and try to carry the situation with some calm or some charm.

Be honest with yourself, have you given A to believe that you think she is right, and in the right? You might now be backtracking because you see that the issues are somewhat more complex, and you have found that when you speak to her, B's self-justification is rational and reasonable. Sometimes people start sneering when they feel they are on to a winner. Did you begin to solve this issue simply by asking other team members for their opinions of A and B, and then lean towards B, or did you observe B's attitude.

I think you need to give B a discrete self-contained job/ mini-project and someone else oversee her - if you do not have time. Discover whether she is snippy, difficult or not hardworking.

You need a work coach or similar to give an expert eye and opinion.

I mean lean towards A, due to the other team members taking her part.

Are you still struggling with this, I've not rttf but I'd just say be really careful when considering the 2 year no protection thing because that's not always the case depending on what they may say in response to any disciplinary action. If you need help pm me I'll try and give you some advice but just solo parenting today I might be a little late replying!

Regardless of if you get rid of B, I think you still need to put A on a performance plan. Her behaviour has still been unacceptable and frankly she needs to learn how to work with people she doesn't get on with if she is going to continue in her current role and in future management roles.

Getting rid of B may just be masking the issue

A still sounds like she's lording it over B regardless of Bs behaviour. I wouldn't want her as a manager

I would not have A formally manage B.

I would speak to A and say as a trainee manager she needs to develop her ability to interact with and influence people over whom she has no management authority.

A is responsible for training B so she needs to meet with her and she needs to answer quieres stating there is “no point” isn’t acceptable.

That doesn’t mean she needs to be at B’s beck and call but she does need to set appropriate check ins and communicate those.

I would also separately let both A & B know that the situation is getting increasingly intolerable and if they cannot resolve their issues then the next step will be to consider performance plans for them both.

As others have said, you can get rid of B without stating any reason. Provided you give her proper notice and she isn't able to claim that you are discriminating against her due to a protected characteristic, you will be safe. However, it sounds to me like A's behaviour is unacceptable. If B's description is correct (refusing to answer questions, sneering) that is bullying. Even if B's description is not correct, A is refusing to meet with B saying there is no point. That is not the way someone with management ambitions should behave. If you don't deal with this, you are likely to have the same problem with another recruit in future. And if B's description is correct, by getting rid of B you will have condoned bullying and encouraged A to think she can get away with it in future.

Further down the line, there might be some posts and reviews about your company, saying that there is bullying, if you release B without due process and without listening carefully to her perspective.

People have the right to change, also. A and B might have been out of line before, but they can both pull it round, if they truly want to and if they are committed to improving the atmosphere on the team, instead of just thinking about whether they themselves have met their own standards.

Having an awkward manner isn't enough of a reason to give up on somebody, so long as they are polite, cooperative and hardworking.

Once upon a time I was very young in a senior position. I was in charge of staff with several decades more years working than me, some of who I'd had mentor me as a student.

It's not easy, but if A was really up to her job she would find a way to make it work. What has she suggested to resolve the issues?

The biggest thing that I think went in my favour was that whenever it was feasible on a shift, I'd allocate myself the jobs that nobody really wanted to do.

We had a lot of senior staff who would do the opposite so it really went in my favour. Just because I'd got promoted over others didn't negate the years of experience others have.

I would really look at A and see if she is actually capable of the job she's doing, or is this going to happen with every personality clash? Part of her role has to be adapting to people she doesn't really get along with.

Tell A that as the longer service employee who is in a trainee management role she has 6 months to sort the problem.

Mentor her on how management is not about training and delegating it is about finding a way to work with different personalities and characters, respecting everyone as an individual, keeping everyone happy to get the best out of them, and the bigger picture of not allowing pettiness to impact the wider team. It is a brilliant opportunity for A to learn from and to understand if she is up to management, if she is even interested in the realities of it, or if her strengths lie elsewhere. Maybe find a course for her.

Review in 6 months.

First and most importantly I'd suggest not listening to anyone on Mumsnet. There are a few Knowledgeable posters but unfortunately there are plenty who give completely incorrect advice. It's bonkers!

Either phone ACAS or contact an external HR consultant. Id think that it would be best to terminate Bs employment. I'd put her on immediate gardening leave and, if it's possible I'd consider being as generous as possible with her pay etc. You would have to get proper advice as to if and how that can be done.

I'd really get some legal advice before you go ahead and dismiss B, whilst some posters are correct about being unable to go to tribunal for certain things with less than 2 years service it really does leave you in a vulnerable situation if you haven't sought advice and they do manage to get you on something.
I'm an experienced manager and struggle to dismiss any one who isn't up to the job as my legal team ensure no stone is unturned. A few years ago I dismissed an employee at her probation review thinking I'd be safe and she managed to take us to tribunal and it certainly cost us a pretty penny, please do not think your safe you really need a legal helpline looking after you when you employ people

When you say you’ve “tried everything”, what is everything? Mediation?

I’d be wondering why B left her old job.

Why? A is refusing to engage at all and as not performing her job role effectively!!

B I suspect is experienced and A feels threatened by this and so is refusing to engaged appropriately with B!

I have experienced similar and it is like gaslighting! A good manager respects all experiences and ideas!

Can I just ask OP, are the rest of the time younger? Are you younger than B?

Excuse the typos.. team not time.

How adult (as in maturity level) is the workplace.

I worked at a firm once that was very pro feedback and people gave and received some tough feedback sometimes.

There A and B would have been taken into a room and told to either

1. act professional stop making the working environment so toxic

Or

2. if they can't do that, then they might be better off working somewhere else and what support do they need to find a new job?

It depends on the companies own policies.

Its really not that easy

Just change peoples shifts, with reasonable notice. If they don’t like it, tough.

is there anything in their contract about only doing certain shifts?