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Any Payroll experts in the house pls

59 replies

Lordhavemercy · 16/06/2022 17:00

Hello, I was short-changed by my employer (paid for lesser hours) also they reported higher amounts of pay to HMRC.

Now, I sent an email to payroll about payment and the amount reported to HMRC which I got to know of through DWP. asked payroll to let me know the figures they reported to HMRC, and pay me the correct amount.

I just got an email from payroll saying I have no right to access any of my information with them and I replied I do as it is my own record I am not asking for another persons info etc

She replied saying she “studied payroll technician in University & have a knowledge of law and rights & have 18years of experience”.

Dont I have a right to request that they send me my own pay record (I have them in my bank statements but it seems they are making too many errors so what to be sure.) and the amount they reported to HMRC?

OP posts:
AllThatFancyPaintsAsFair · 18/06/2022 23:54

But I am sure the income report to HMRC are all automated but then, they paid me a different amoun

Actually I'm not sure they are automated, I know ive seen a thread on here about a similar issue and the reason was that someone had made a typo when transferring data from one system to another

I'd put money on this being cock up rather than conspiracy

SolasAnla · 19/06/2022 00:26

OP I would follow @Respectforpeople 's advice
Plus your manager needs to step up too.

Is there a possibility that you were originally scheduled for less time and you ended up working more and your payroll dont have the actual hours?

Sorry OP i dont mean to derail your thread, by the fraud question

@AllThatFancyPaintsAsFair in an active fraud the cash going out needs to match the total cost of paying for everybody eg gross pay. The payments will be scheduled on different days and the finance team will be checking the bank statement against the total expected payroll payouts.

How the fraud happens depends on how integrated the payroll system is as it is creating electronic files to be uploaded onto other systems.
If you could get a stand alone payroll licence for 10k and skim 60k; so 50k pa in your account with a small risk of jail ..... (most staff fraud starts small and grows as the employee takes more and bigger risk )

And with full admin access and a backup of last months payroll you could run the payroll as many times as you wished. Most systems will allow a soft close to check and allow an input correction as human error is inevatable.

Short version the fraud is built around how the money can be moved

Payroll calc
30 h at £12.50ph
20% tax
8% NI
12% pension across 2 companies 40%/60%

1000 employees

Have you paid 1000 ees Y/N
Have you paid 30,000 hours? Y/N
Are you going to do a manual check on every line of data if its not your job Y/N (or rely on employees pointing out errors that slip through (this is the risk))

Each payslip will show
375 gross
75 tax
30 ni
45 pension
225 net pay
(5+ manual calculations)

Run the reports which total the payslips
(5+1 column by 1000 numbers manual calc)

Or
Company has to payout
£375,000

Bank statement
75,000 HMRC
30,000 HMRC
18,000 pension co1
27,000 pension co2
225,000 * bank will take the money in 1 deduction and split across the employees bank accounts

Cash out and reports agree

To extract the money before any payment is processed change the bank account and create a false payslip

20 h at £12.50ph
250 gross
50 tax
20 ni
30 pension
150 net pay

The new account receives 225 and pays out 150
Employee payslip and cash in their bank agrees

Prior to real time filing employees could only check their files after the year end and even now most people may not check their payslip/ P60 against HMRC unless it causes a larger than expected net pay variation.

Payroll systems have checks and controls but they have to be turned on and monitored to work.

Anyway its too early to rule out simple human error

One way the OPs error could occur is that the system allows a soft close which allowed payroll to generate all the files. Then the OPs payroll inputs are changed. The bank and payslip file are re-run to reflect the changes but the HMRC file is not amended.
HMRC will upload the file that was sent to them against the OP (& others) and then investigat why the payment for tax and NI and the file do not match.

Sapphirejane · 19/06/2022 08:32

@Lordhavemercy OP - you can get a three year work history of the amounts reported to HMRC and tax/NI paid via your online government gateway account. Might save you some time trying to get through to them on the phone.

Lordhavemercy · 19/06/2022 13:18

Thank you all.

I forgot to mention that DWP said employer reported higher payment to me say £Y and they also said there is a third-party payment of £X to be considered by Universal credit. I Dont know what third party payment is. I asked but no reply 🙄🤦🏽‍♀️🤷🏽‍♀️

OP posts:
Respectforpeople · 23/06/2022 18:50

@Lordhavemercy have you managed to get the information and progress this?

Lordhavemercy · 23/06/2022 18:59

@Respectforpeople thanks but no real progress yet. Work said my manager is working on trying to sort the hours paid for out. I am waiting till end of the week and then I will send an email on Monday giving them 5 days to reply or I go to an employment tribunal.

OP posts:
Respectforpeople · 23/06/2022 23:41

Thanks for the update. It may take a while for your manager and payroll to work out where it’s gone wrong. If you need to involve ACAS for early conciliation go for unlawful deduction of wages, (if the figures work out) failure to pay NMW plus financial detriment.

Lordhavemercy · 26/06/2022 20:19

I really need to take this company to employment tribunal. Some of my colleagues are complaining bitterly about being short-changed etc
I was off work for a few days because I wasn't too well and the all the problems I am having is demoralizing
Over time was offered and I reluctantly took it (because if they can't get normal shift pay right, who is to say over time time will be paid and on time) for an extra 2 hours on Friday and an hour Saturday 9-10am. I finished and logged off.
I logged into my account this morning to find a message from yesterday at 10:38am (after I had finished the 1 hour shift) saying myself and some others should log off because they have too many people working and over time is now cancelled.
I replied this morning that if they were going to cancel the overtime, they should have informed me before 9 am not after I have finished my 1-hour shift. I am sure they won't want to pay for the 1 hour of work done because of how they operate. If they Dont pay me, or explain, list all my pay on their system, I am going to an employment tribunal. It is not so much about the money it is about treating people right and not as slaves. Apart from working, I have now got myself a notebook that i write all the hours worked and breaks taken down and take screenshots of messages etc 🤦🏽‍♀️its like another 2nd job on the side without pay trying to keep an accurate record and pictures of everything 🙄

OP posts:
RandomMess · 26/06/2022 20:25

Urgh they sound dreadful. What industry do you work in?

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 26/06/2022 20:34

I haven't RTFT but it is possible that it is HMRCs mistake.

It is possible that your company is reporting the correct figures to HMRC but HMRC are picking up higher ones.

It is unusual but it is possible.

userxx · 26/06/2022 20:37

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 26/06/2022 20:34

I haven't RTFT but it is possible that it is HMRCs mistake.

It is possible that your company is reporting the correct figures to HMRC but HMRC are picking up higher ones.

It is unusual but it is possible.

The figures hmrc have are supplied by the payroll software so it's the payroll that's incorrect.

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 26/06/2022 20:53

@userxx

No it is possible for HMRC to pick up the wrong figures. It had happened to people on the payroll forum I belong to.

userxx · 26/06/2022 21:00

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 26/06/2022 20:53

@userxx

No it is possible for HMRC to pick up the wrong figures. It had happened to people on the payroll forum I belong to.

Fair enough, I've submitted thousands of RTI's and never known that to happen.

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 26/06/2022 22:54

@userxx

So have I and it has never happened to me.

It is very unusual but can happen. In that case as well the persons benefits were reduced.

I would also have thought that the employer would also be told that they had underpaid PAYE and NI by HMRC.

Lordhavemercy · 30/06/2022 02:35

So I finally got a call from DWP today informing me that HMRC did call my employer that the manner in which they reported my income was wrong & told them the appropriate way to report income. I was sent a document about what they did wrong which I forwarded to payroll asking them to correct It by this time next week.
So it's apparent that the payroll person who said she or he is got 18 years of experience & a degree in “payroll technician” (their exact words) and wasn't listening to me at all got it all wrong and was given a lecture by HMRC.

OP posts:
Respectforpeople · 30/06/2022 08:25

Glad this is moving forward.

creditslip · 30/06/2022 08:38

This sounds awful - keep calm you calm, you can't hide money very easily - they will discover what's been going wrong and it will be rectified, it may just take (too much) time. Might be worth looking for another job.

RandomMess · 30/06/2022 09:36

I wonder if she's been giving full employer rather than employee costs 😳🙄

SolasAnla · 30/06/2022 11:09

Lordhavemercy · 30/06/2022 02:35

So I finally got a call from DWP today informing me that HMRC did call my employer that the manner in which they reported my income was wrong & told them the appropriate way to report income. I was sent a document about what they did wrong which I forwarded to payroll asking them to correct It by this time next week.
So it's apparent that the payroll person who said she or he is got 18 years of experience & a degree in “payroll technician” (their exact words) and wasn't listening to me at all got it all wrong and was given a lecture by HMRC.

This will partly explain why payroll is so busy.

The employee will have flaged the company for a HMRC payroll audit.

Starseeking · 30/06/2022 13:29

On first read I was going to suggest you approach the HR Director/other senior bod at your work and explain the situation, and you want it investigated properly, however it sounds like it's been resolved now, which is good.

Lordhavemercy · 30/06/2022 14:29

@Starseeking
I thought it was now resolved but just got an email from payroll insisting that they are correct in the manner in which they calculated and reported my earnings even though I forwarded the doc sent to me by DWP detailing how HMRC called payroll telling them it was done the wrong way etc. I have just replied saying it needs to be done the way and manner HMRC wants it done. I see what the reply is and then take it from there. If they still insist that they won't correct it like the HMRC wants it, I will have to go to employment tribunal. I dread that because is more headache for me for probably some money that is not worth it but it is not just about the money even though is money worked for and due to me, it is also about the principle of it. Lots of people solely depend on the income paid to them from work and DWP etc and with the cost of living now, they should be more careful with these things and yes, mistakes do happen which is normal but then they need to work quickly to solve it not ignore and then stress employees out like this. I have 2 young kids and other personal things to deal with and chasing payroll, HMRC & DWP should not be added to my chores or workload 🙄🤦🏽‍♀️

OP posts:
DPotter · 30/06/2022 14:46

I feel your frustration but hold off from thinking you need an employment tribunal just for now. You need to approach your Finance director with your complaint - usually payroll is under Finance managerially and copy in EVERYONE - your manager, your manager's manager - you get the picture. Also escalate with HMRC.

Are you in a union ? - if you are they can be very helpful in this type of situation as they can take the pressure off your shoulders

Starseeking · 30/06/2022 14:50

Take a few deep breaths and think in terms of what needs to be done to confirm this properly:

  • Download all your timesheets from wherever they are saved on your system
  • Check that all the hours you have worked have been recorded on your time sheet system
  • Download all payslips from wherever they are saved on your system
  • Check that the total hours worked across all time sheets agree to the total hours paid for across all payslips (there could be timing differences)
  • Download your bank statements across the relevant period
  • Check the net pay on each of your payslips agrees to what you received on your bank statement
  • Create an account for yourself on the Government Gateway
  • Download the monthly submissions on the Government gateway
  • Check that the amounts on the monthly submissions in the Government Gateway agree to your payslips
  • By this point, you will know exactly how much the difference is and should feel confident standing your ground
  • Contact the HR Director and advise them in writing that you believe your hours, pay and reporting to HMRC do not match up
  • If you are told that none of the above information can be provided by staff, make a subject access request addressed to the Directors of your company
  • once you have through above through the subject access request, start at the top of the list
  • Only after all of the above should you think about going to an Employment Tribunal (you'll need to submit all of the above in any case as evidence)

While I agree you shouldn't have to do any of the above yourself, unfortunately you may be left with little choice in the matter, if you're not provided with the information you need quickly.

P.S. Payroll fraud is really easy to commit for someone who knows all the controls, and therefore how to circumvent them.

Lordhavemercy · 30/06/2022 17:02

We d employees of the company do not have timesheet that we can see but I have a note book where I religiously keep an accurate record of my hours and breaks etc. The firm is got a system that records when employees log in, out on break & then that record is passed on to payroll for payment.
I have all my payslips and net pay matches money paid into my bank account. But my hours worked does not match hours on pays lip (I was paid for lesser hours than worked). But then the hours reported to HMRC is way higher than actual hours I worked🙄

I have had a reply to my email now which is not great. The lady from payroll says they will not be changing anything that yes they were called by HMRC but that way HMRC was asking it to calculated and reported is wrong and that I should tell HMRC/DWP to pay me what is due to me to this I replied that HMRC said they won't pay until it is corrected and she replied asking if I was asking her to hide my wages and I said I never asked her to hide anything but to do as directed by HMRC that if there is a disagreement btw them and HMRC, they need to sort it out and that I should not be used like a pawn because chasing it all now is now like a full time job without pay and that it seems they do not realise people depend on their salary for a livining and that I have got 2 little kids. I asked that if she is not the manager of payroll, I would like to have the manager's email address & that if she is I will have no choice but to go to an employment tribunal.

The company structure is a big fat joke.
None of us know who the data protection officer is or payroll manager or HR manager. If you have to do anything, is got to go through ones manager which changes every other day who in most cases the manager does not do much for one at all. I am leaving this firm as soon as I can.
I emailed the operations manager asking her for the details of the data protection officer because I want to have a record of my hours recorded and pay on the system but was denied by payroll saying I do not have the right to it etc. But the operations manager never replied 🙄🤷🏽‍♀️. This company is useless and I have found other colleagues complaining bitterly too.

OP posts:
Respectforpeople · 30/06/2022 20:55

@Starseeking has given you an excellent process to follow. I would add a further step. Once you have hours worked and gross pay in each pay period (month) work out your hourly rate. If it is below NMW report to HMRC who should investigate.

With regard to the SAR, they have 40 days to respond. If no response report to Information Commissioner.

I would also speak to ACAS and consider lodging a grievance, you ideally do this before going down the ET route.

The grievance needs to be after the 40 days so you can include breach of GDPR failure to provide SAR, failure to supply HMRC with accurate data, possible payment of less than NMW, unlawful deduction of wages etc.