why do companies say they are 'family friendly' and have a flexible working policy then end up saying "no"??!!

[happynappies]

I am at my wits end. Myself and my dh made a decision when our dd was born that we were going to look after her ourselves. I'm not judging anyone here - it is just that we made a decision that we weren't going to call upon our parents, or use nurseries or whatever... we are not well off by any stretch of the imagination, I am a teacher with no management points or responsibilities, and dh earns marginally less than me. We worked out that the only possible way we could afford to look after our dd was for me to work one day a week and dh to compress his hours, working four days a week but doing full-time hours. I applied for flexible working, and to cut a very long story 9 months short, I was ready to go to Employment Tribunal when my employers backed down. I'm worn out from fighting tooth and nail for 9 months, and thought the hard part was done. Now dh works in the 'real world' in a large well-known company who are full of their flexible working policy and child family policies. So when he goes to them to ask informally whether he can compress his hours and have one day a week off, they say no (despite the fact that others in his department do this when they don't even have caring responsibilities). He then says he will take his annual leave one day a week - we won't have any holidays together, but no worries... But, they well say no he can't do that either, because everyone else might want to. Now we're stuck. I'm back at work. His work have given us four weeks - what are we supposed to do now? It seems to me that people spout 'family friendly' and 'flexible working' but what they really mean is perhaps we can offer you something, some small concession... it won't be what you need in order to fulfill your childcare commitments because we're not interested in that - that's your problem. Sorry for the rant... just so angry!!!!

that is a runnish situation. I suppose they all have to be seen as inclusive and are not allowed to officially hold any policies that could discrimate against anyone....but of course this still doesn't stop this sort of thing from happening.
Hope you can sort something out.
Have you considered maybe taking somehting like a Supermarket Job that fits around your dh's hours, or maybe childminding would be an option or some personal tutoring?

Presumably because it looks good on the tick box chart!

They are correct in that your childcare commitments are not their problem.

However, if people have the hours your husband wants and they have exactly the same job they should have no reason for turning him down. If he has a different job role, then it makes a difference.

I think the new rights to apply for flexible working are great but also think that people take it for granted they will submit their proposed hours and just get them agreed. I did, I hold my hands up to it and they got declined. What suited me didnt necessarily suit the business. We did compromise and it worked out great in the end.

The tutoring sounds goods as you can work your own hours, if you're only working one day a week then private tutoring should easily cover the wage drop.

My mums a teacher and does exam marking to supplement her income, she does this in the evenings,might be worth cnsidering. Sorry your dhs employers are being so awful.

Thanks for your thoughts... I considered personal tutoring, selling nappies, childrens books etc - all kinds of things - when I thought I was going to be forced to resign when my employer wouldn't initially change my work pattern. The problem is that I would have to do so much more work to make even a fraction of what I would on my contract, and would have no sick pay, maternity pay etc etc. I'm just so annoyed about it because employers' instant reaction seems to be to say no, for business reasons, but if they actually looked at it properly, things could be sorted out (as was proven in my case where they relented, and I'm now working the hours that they said I wouldn't be able to work). I understand that in some cases proposed working arrangements just don't fit with the business needs, but in my dh's case the company just aren't flexible. I can't just leave instantly anyway - I'd have to give notice, so not sure what we are going to do in the meantime. I'm hoping that dh can get them to agree to him taking his annual leave... grrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Happy.

Sorry, but I can see why your DH's employer wouldn't want him taking a day's holiday every week. That isn't really what holiday is for and means he would never get a substantial break from work.

I think that you now need to go through the formal flexible working request process with his employer. I do agree it's rubbish that they've been so unhelpful. At least if you do the formal request then they will have to give proper, thought out reasons for their views. It could also be sex discrimination if they take a different attitudes to part time requests from men and women.

Am that you managed to get one day a week though. I presume that what you do is quite specialist? Most employers who would agree a three, or even two, day week can show that all the handover necessary for one day a week makes it not worthwhile. Congratulations though. Obviously did work in your case.

in answer to your q they say they are family friendly because to put "we are arrogant inflexible bastards with no respect for people's private lives" on their HR material wouldn't sound as good.

In answer to your post, your DH needs to go through the formal channels. His boss may well back down when they have a "chat" with HR.

THey have to give a valid business reason why he can't do compressed horus, and his application should anticipate their possible objections and show how he would work around them (for example if they would say that it would place a burden on other staff he needs to show how that won't be the case, if they say he needs to be contactable then he can offer to be available on his mobile on his day "off")

Also if he can demonstrate that others in his department have been granted flexible working and he hasn't then he may have a case for discrimination.

Unfortunately they have at least 6 weeks from the date of the application before they have to give you a decision and then of course that decision might be "no" and you would have to go to appeal, so it would be a good idea to put in place some childcare provision, even if you only intend to use it as long as the dispute lasts.

The thing is, any situation is about compromise really. I'm a teacher, and I have a number of colleagues who have requested, and been granted, flexible working. I also have friends in other jobs who have had requests granted. Equally, I know a number of people who have had requests turned down. It sounds as if you and your DH had a very INFLEXIBLE idea of what you wanted - ie: you teaching one day, DH retaining a full time income while compressing his work into 4 days. To be that specific is in some ways a bit unreasonable. Maybe it would be more realistic to accept that you may be able to come up with a deal which allows you and DH to care for you DD for most of the time, but use child care for a small part of it? IME, where flexible working is most effective, the person requesting it is also reasonably flexible - ie not demanding specific days off. HappyMummyofOne makes a valid point - childcare is not your employers problem. Those of us who choose to have babies need to accept that it's our responsibility to decide the whys and wherefores of looking after them.

I respect what you are trying to do and it is not easy to pull off.

Dh could ask his union for advice and ask his employer why others can do their hours in 4 days but not him.

You could consider working anti-social hours in a different line of work so that childcare could be provided by dh.
You could approach all schools in your area and ask if 1 day a week would be useful to them...are you a primary or secondary teacher and could you do tutoring?

Clearly you have your own objectives in mind, and employers have their objectives in mind - this is reasonable for both parties. However I personally think that the attitude from employers that full time workers are always best is plain wrong.

happynappies, is there a reason why he didn't ask formally? It's just ime (my own, DH's and several colleagues) bosses almost always turn down informal applications and almost always grant formal ones when they realise you are serious.

Alfiesbabe - that is exactly what our employers seem to think - that we are being inflexible. When I went to my employer with my request, I explained how easy it would be for them to accommodate my request. I work in FE, where many tutors are paid on an hourly paid basis, so we have tutors who e.g. work 1 hour a week. So nothing out of the ordinary for me to work 1 day a week. The classes I have are seen on a weekly basis by me only, so there is no handover to do. My employer intitially said no because they didn't want to set a precedent for other people, and were quite happy to pay me on an hourly paid rate to do one day a week. As this is clearly discrimination I was prepared to take them to tribunal, and realising they were in the wrong they backed down. Is it really so unreasonable to want to provide care for our daughter between us? I was prepared to work two half days, all evenings, all weekends - I pointed out exactly how flexible I was prepared to be - prepared to teach other courses etc etc. My DH hasn't made a formal request (yet) because things work differently in his place of work. Most people have a chat with their line manager and come to an informal agreement, because they are usually more willing to do that than to agree something in writing which is seen as more long term. He would be willing to reduce his hours (e.g. work a 4 day week) etc. I think flexible working is about looking at ways of helping people to meet their caring commitments, without forcing them to choose between career and family. I think there is a clear difference between a business where, for example, there is a small staff team, and e.g. deliveries always arrive on a Wednesday morning, and one member of staff requests Wednesday mornings off. Obviously the needs of the employee are at odds with the needs of the employer. However, when in my case tutors are paid by the hour anyway, it can be clearly demonstrated that the new work pattern can be accommodated. This is also true in my dh's case - they CAN accommodate the work pattern, but just don't want to because they don't want other people thinking that they can all do the same. IMO flexible working isn't about 'setting a precedent' which employers seem to fear. It is about considering each individual case. My employer intitially seemed to think that a compromise meant me working 3 days instead of 1. They couldn't see that I just couldn't do more than 1 day, although I could teach any number of evening courses, or weekend courses. It is not the case that we 'want it all on our terms' - just that we want to avoid daycare, and the only way we can do that is by sharing the care of our daughter ourselves. As I pointed out to my employer - they might be able to suggest to me that I put my daughter in a nursery, but what could they suggest to the person caring for elderly parents or disabled child or whatever? Dh is weighing up whether to make a formal application and basically kiss goodbye to any long-term prospects with this company, because no doubt appeals/grievances etc will follow, or whether to just look for somewhere else anyway - flexible working legislation is toothless and pointless in my very angry opinion, and I've had enough!!!

This is very difficult and very emotive happy.
In my case the one and only thing that worried me to the point of not sleeping or eating was my working arrangements after i returned to work following mat leave.
It actually worked out very well for all concerned but then there was the opportunity for promotion for me.
I wanted the promotion very badly BUT it meant a total overhaul of my hours and shift patterns.
My employer (the NHS) are completely black and white about working hours.(for shop floor nurses)
Shifts must be covered by an adequate amount of staff at the correct skill mix. 24 hours a day. This includes Christmas and new year and all bank holidays...these are an ordinary working day and you have no choice, if you are sheduled to work it..you work it end of.
Off duty is different every week, mixes of late shifts and early shift...oh and lets throw a couple of night shifts in there as well.
So along comes i wanting a teaching post.
I sat down with my line managers and told them what i could do.
They agreed verbally.

Now i am in a VERY fortunate position that they are using me as an example of just how family freindly they are...look at the hours that this person (me) works, aren't we wonderful employers, aren't we clever.
I in turn am totally flexible. If it suits me then i do extra shifts, i fill in when people are off sick and i help out as much as possible.
Dh is also a teacher in FE, he presents us with a whole other raft of problems but these are ofset by his fab holidays, child care in the holidays is most working parents dread and fear. Not for us.
A whole other thread BUT playschools are not evil awful you know. The only thing that made me feel better about putting my child in a play school was because it was for him and not because i NEEDED to in order to go to work. He went in on my days off for 2.5 hours.twice a week thats all.
Wasnt about other people caring for him, was about his little social network...he got absolutely LOADS out of it especially messy play...fab fab fab!
Just droning on abit now, suppose my point is that once you get it sorted, you will wonder what all the fuss was about because life will be so lovely and smooth in terms of balancing child care and work.
Good luck and i hope that you get the outcome that you are obviously entitled to.

happynappies - it certainly sounds from what you're saying as if your job could be accommodated, though of course without knowing the whole picture and how the employer feels it may impact, it's impossible to know what their views are.
I agree that the principle of flexible working is a good one in many ways (though I don't think it should be restricted to parents - I think many people have valid reasons to request it). However, the point I was making is that BOTH parties need to be flexible. It sounds as if you and your dh have sat down and calculated exactly the minimum amount of work you need to do to be able to afford to live and care for your dd, and you're then expecting both your employers to fit in with exactly that. And I think the reality is that life isn't as simple as that! What if everybody did the same - eg we could manage financially if I taught for, say 3 and a half days, and dh taught for 4 and a half. Do we then automatically have the right to expect ouur employers to enable us to do exactly this? The reality is that most families could probably come up with precise working patterns which provide enough income for them to live on, but would be very difficult for every employer to accommodate. Probably many single people could afford to work for, say 4 or 4 and a half days - does this mean they should automatically be allowed to? I can imagine a work force where barely anyone worked full time. The bottom line is, the employer is there to provide a service/product etc and they have rights too. I think FLEXIBLE working applies to both sides - employer and employee.

Its not that we sat down and calculated the minimum amount of work that we would be able to do - we just thought about how we could best achieve our aim, and thought about the constraints we work within. We wouldn't be asking our employers' to accommodate anything that we knew was impossible... If it can be accommodated though, and you meet the criteria (i.e. have a caring responsibility) then why not? The workforce is going to be made up of part-time/flexi workers more and more in the future. Why should that be a problem? Why should two part-time workers who are happier with their work-life balance, and working hard to support their employer (i.e. going the extra mile) as donbean described be 'worse' than a full-time employee? I think the problem is that the legislation is new, and employers (many of them anyway) have outdated notions of what flexible working is, and don't want to actually think constructively about ways to accommodate their workforce. I'll say again, we didn't want it all 'our way'. Our income has been cut by 50% - there would be plenty of other things we could have suggested if money was our primary motivator. Dh's employers pride themselves on being family friendly, and have posters on virtually every wall in their head office advertising the benefits of flexible working. It is a joke when employers can get away with pretending they are family friendly when the reality is more than a bit different. I do agree with the need to compromise on both sides, but I guess I disagree with what compromise means. There are many things I'd be prepared to do e.g. work from home, work evenings, work weekends, undertake additional training in order to work in a different capacity etc. What I'm not prepared to compromise on is my commitment to my family - I won't be dictated to by some jobsworth in HR how my daughter is going to be looked after. I thought that every parent had 'choice' in this respect... Ok, I'm calming down a bit more now - maybe dh will have a different response if he makes a formal request, or maybe he will just have to look for another job that can accommodate us - we'll see.

happynappies, you've certainly given this a lot of thought, and your last post was very reasonable. I still think though, that part of the problem is that some people who request flexible working are NOT so reasonable. I've known colleagues who want to dictate which days they'll work etc - I even know of someone who asked for Fridays off so that she could go away for a long weekend if she wanted to. Sorry, but that's nothing to do with caring responsibilities,it's just about someone trying to use the legislation to get what they want!!
Flexible working CAN work in some situations, and I'd be the first to agree that when it works for both sides, it's great. But we also need to be realistic about where it has disadvantages. I manage a team where several people are part time, and tbh, there ARE downsides. eg I'm organising a training session for my team, and because 2 people job share, one of them will miss the training. The only other alternative is for the school I work in to pay both people to work on that day - which means that the employer loses out - in this case, the employer being a strapped-for-cash Local Authority. I have no problem with how the two jobsharers do their jobs, but there's no point pretending that there are no down sides. The fact is, one fulltime worker who did their job well WOULD be better suited to this post.

The thing that stands out for me happy is that as far as you are aware, there are other employees at your dh's workplace who have had flexible working requests granted in exactly the pattern your dh wants. I find it amazing that he's been refused. I know the last thing you want is another scrap, but I would get proper employment law advice pronto (maybe you have already, sorry if you've said this).

I don't think your requirements are at all unreasonable - tbh I'm slightly surprised at the tone of this thread, although it is thoughtprovoking for me.

I sympathise. My former employers pride themselves on their 'family friendly' policies. However, their idea of flexible working was to go completely part-time and take a demotion (or continue working long, unsociable hours full time and often 'on call'. Great 'choice'. I proposed various other models of flexible working, and they turned them all down. So I left and found some genuinely flexible work. It wasn't easy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be held over a barrell for years and years to come.

LoveAngel - I think you're right. If an employer can't offer what suits you, then take your skills elsewhere. There are going to be some situations where you're just not going to be able to reach a satisfactory compromise. The employee wants one thing, the employer wants another. Slagging off the employer as 'family unfriendly'is a waste of time and unreasonable. They don't owe any of us a living. I work full time and enjoy it. If at some point I want more time at home, I'll see whether there's a solution that doesn't impact negatively on my employer or colleagues, and if there isnt one, then I'll be off elsewhere!!

Well, like I said previously, dh probably will have to look elsewhere. Can't help feeling that if we never challenge the employers they can continue to get away with fobbing us off with their 'business reasons' without giving careful consideration to accommodating reasonable requests. I agree that venting my frustration is probably a waste of time, but don't think it is unreasonable, as dh's employers say they are family friendly when they blatantly are not. They don't owe us a living, but they have a responsibility to consider our requests and accommodate them where they can. So, giving young single guys Fridays off so they can enjoy their weekends away is ok, but turning down my dh's request for a day off to enable me to continue my career... I just wish some employers actually understood flexible working and what it could mean for them in a positive way, and would stop the knee-jerk 'no' response... angry again now!

happynappies sounds like you had a tough time getting your flexible working request though, congratulations on getting it sorted.

You do sound very angry generally about flexible working, and at your DH's employers, even though he hasn't actually put in a request yet. I understand an informal discussion hasn't gone well, but I don't think it's really fair to be quite as negative as you have been unless and until your DH puts in a proper, considered, well-justified request including lots of business-benefits.

I'm sure that's not what you want to hear and I understand that to an extent you are venting after a long struggle yourself, but your DH's employers haven't actually been given the opportunity to give careful consideration to his request and explain any business reasons for refusal, so give them that chance.

Well personally I don't agree with limiting flexible working requests to those who happen to have young children. There are many other people who might also wnat flexible working - they may have teenagers who need care and guidance, or elderly relatives. Or they may have no children but have other hobbies and interests they want to devote time to. So in principle, I wouldn't have a problem with young single guys having friday off if this option is available to other employees too. The key thing is surely that we start from a level playing field. Your baby is the most important thing to you, but other employees will have lives that are equally important to them. Give everyone equal rights, including the right of the employer to say so if a flexible working request really isnt going to work for them.

Thanks Flowerybeanbag, and you're right... I'm angry because I've had to fight so hard knowing that I was being treated unfairly, thought the hard part was over, and can now see it happening all over again. But it hasn't happened yet. We'll see what happens in response to the formal request.

Alfiesbabe fair enough - perhaps an independent body should decide whether a flexible working request is reasonable or not though, because at the moment it really isn't that hard for employers to show that they have carefully considered a request but still say 'no' even when it could be accommodated. I'll stop now. It wears me out just thinking about it. Thanks everyone for your words...

If you want some help with the request do come back. I am sure you have seen it already given your history but working families website has loads of handy stuff.

Have you looked at this from other angles?
Who would do your husbands job on Fridays ?
Would he leave his service short/uncovered ?
Would collegues have to pick up extra work ?How would it affect the service he delivers ?
Could he maybe drop his hours to 4 days a week instead of working longer hours for 4 days-that way money would be freed up to allow his boss to employ someone else on a Friday-but would anyone want to work one day a week ?
I think he has the right to reduce his hours so he would stand more of a chance of applying for reduced hours .
Most people cant work full time AND be at home 3 days unless they are self employed or shift workers .
Flexibility i thought was more to do with maybe going in half an hour earlier .My employer is very flexible but they can only do this when it doesn`t affect service provision-therefore i reduced my hours.
Everyone should expect a little more flexibility in this day and age but not just because of children-it should be for everyone .I have 3 children but my collegue has none and - i think she should have as much right to flexible working to improve the quality of her own personal life as me.I chose to have 3 children and its hard to strike a good work/home balance-but much easier than it was years ago.
Flexibility needs to be a 2 way process .If anyone finds it easy please let the rest of us know !

Excellent post fakeblonde - you show very clearly how all situations are complex and that it may be difficult for the employee to see every angle that the employer has to consider. I also agree that it's worth remembering how far things have moved on.... flexible working wouldn't have even been considered just a couple of decades ago - you either went back to your job or you didnt. So really, we've come a long way.