Disciplinary looming at work, but are they going to sack me now?

[ErmineAndPearls]

I'm a teacher in an independent school. I've been having problems for a couple of years, largely due to the menopause, I think. I wasn't previously this disorganised, forgetful, knackered mess. There's no doubt that I've been underperforming. I look at my colleagues and I just don't know how they do it. I'm overwhelmed.
My line managers know this and they've been trying to support me. I've had occupational health appointments and they've given me an easier timetable. It hasn't made enough of a difference.
I was called to a short meeting several weeks ago with my three (!) managers. They said they were starting a process, that what was going on "wasn't sustainable". I basically need too much support. The Deputy Head said that she really hoped that this "didn't have to become disciplinary". There was a longer meeting a week later in which targets were given to me. I went off actually thinking that this could be a positive process.
Now I've been called to another meeting, this time to "discuss the targets" that were set. The email inviting me to this meeting has me worried sick. The previous emails said "feel free to bring someone with you". I chose not to, because I didn't want to seem defensive and I know these managers well. This recent email does not say I can bring someone with me. This email says that two of the three managers will be there (Head of Dept, Deputy Head of School) and also a woman from HR. Is this it? Are they literally going to sack me?

Sorry to hear what's going on. The fact they haven't said to bring someone doesn't mean it's more likely they are going to sack you, in fact less likely as it's a fundamental part of the ACAS code that you should have representation at any formal disciplinary or capability management meetings. Very basic HR training to allow the person to bring a rep to any formal meetings. However it's possible they have just forgotten to add that line to the invitation, I would email back and ask to clarify as a matter of urgency, and if you are a member of a union I would 100% want your union rep there (ask to postpone if your rep is not available). I would be surprised if just a few weeks on from setting you the improvement plan/targets they want to go straight from being supportive and trying to help to sacking you and if you have been there more than 2 years, they are obliged to give you time to improve otherwise it could be unfair dismissal - unless anything you've done could constitute gross misconduct of course, and even then they are obliged to investigate properly not just make an on the spot decision.

However from the HR person being there it does sound as though it's escalating to a more formal stage of the process, you may need to do some preparation to think what really needs to happen for you to demonstrate you can improve on a fairly rapid timescale, for instance if you are feeling overwhelmed have you thought about reducing your hours, perhaps temporarily, if the school could accommodate? Have you fully investigated whether there is any medical treatment possible for your menopause symptoms, have any/all the OH recommendations been implemented? Would coaching or training be helpful to you?

I don't know what your employer will do but If you we're my employee I know what I would do.

You can always bring someone with you even if they don't explicitly ask.

have you met the targets?

Assuming schools act in the same way as business, they can't just sack you unless its for gross misconduct. It sounds like they put the wheels in motion a while back but you need to go through the process of verbal and written warnings. have you had any of that?

Helpful.

How unkind. This is the employment board. The poster is seeking help and advice. You offered neither.
AIBU might be a better playground for you.

OP, can you ask for clarification of the purpose of the meeting?

Is it a meeting to see how you are performing in relation to the targets? Meeting/exceeding/missing them? If you're on a performance management scheme it would be normal to have meetings to see how it's going and you do mention 'discuss the targets'.

Presumably the other meeting set the targets, what did they say in that one about how many times you would meet up/how long you'd have to meet expectations?

If I was planning to sack you, I would absolutely inform you that you were entitled to be accompanied to the meeting by either a colleague or a union rep. If this hasn't been mentioned, I think it's unlikely that they will do anything drastic at that meeting.

OP - if you are on Facebook can I suggest you join 'life after teaching - exit the classroom' not because I think you should leave but because you will get a lot of support and advice from people who have experienced similar situations.

I doubt they can just sack you, they will need to follow a performance review and if they are thinking of taking this to a disciplinary then that is a process too. What help have you had sinxe the target meeting happened, are you in a union.

Not HR, but I am manage a team and am going through this with one of my indirect reports.

It very much sounds like you were put on some sort of informal performance process, whereby initially they gave you an 'easier timetable and occupational health support.

The meetings that took place several weeks ago were likely to give them a paper trail ahead of moving to a more formal process; this will have included setting SMART style targets (specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, time-bound) that could be used as evidence to proceed to a more formal process or close the process down if satisfactory improvements were made.

As part of these meetings, you should have been made aware of any review dates and what the process and steps would be if you weren't hitting the targets. Ideally, you should have also been given a copy of the performance policy so that you also had in writing what the stages of performance review were and possible the outcomes at each of these stages. At our company, this part of the process is approx 4-6 weeks.

The meeting with HR present sounds like they are moving to a formal performance process. This is likely because your performance has not improved to a satisfactory level during the informal process. Our company use a 3-stage formal process. Stage 1 sets more time bound targets, taking into account the findings from the informal process. Outcomes can range from no further action to changes in working practices, additional training, redeployment or moving to Stage 2. Stage 2 is more of the same, but under a final written warning. Outcomes of this can range from no further action or redeployment to dismissal hearing (Stage 3). At our company, the formal process takes 1-3 months.

I seriously doubt they will be looking at dismissal at this stage (and as a PP has said, they absolutely should state you're entitled to be accompanied by a union rep or employee at all stages, but particularly if they are considering dismissal). But, please seek clarification of the precise purpose of this meeting and ensure you have someone with you at all meetings from now.

This is not at all true. If you are not performing and they have acted reasonably (eg by putting you on an improvement plan) they can sack you for capability reasons.

Get your union rep to join you. There will be one in the school

In the end if you cannot do the job despite everyone's good intentions and adjustments they may have to dismiss you. For your protection and theirs they need to follow the process and record everything. They may offer you a settlement (few months pay for example) to just leave confidentially and avoid a drawn out formal performance process.

Disciplinary and performance management procedures are different though. I had an employee who had both, a disciplinary for deliberately timewasting at work, a performance plan for just making loads of mistakes and poor quality work.

Do yo think you can improve? Are you in the right job? Often people who see a performance plan looming just leave IME.

Thank you for your responses.
@maxelly I have considered asking to drop my hours and I probably should have done this a while ago. I was determined that I could handle my issues on my own, as I have always been able to in the past. I didn’t want to “admit defeat”.
My menopausal symptoms (which I won’t go into, but which are many) really ramped up during lockdown. It has been virtually impossible to get to see a doctor. I have an appointment coming up that had to be booked a month in advance. I’m on Fluoxetine, but not HRT. One of the things that OH suggested was CBT. The school arranged it, but it has only just started.

@nearlyspringyay I have had no written warnings. I’ve had a good shot at meeting the targets, but now that they’re watching me like hawks, I’m being pulled up for every little mistake, which is very demoralising.

@Gazelda The invitation to the meeting was literally one line, which said “to discuss the targets”.

@ChicCroissant There has never been any discussion about how many times we would meet or how long I had to improve. I didn’t think to ask at the meeting, because I was basically keeping quiet in case I made things worse.

@BetteDavies Thank you, that Facebook group sounds good. I might have to join it via an alter-ego though - all the other teachers are my FB friends!

@BlanketsBanned Since the last meeting I’ve had a weekly “mentor meeting” with the Head of Dept, which has actually been really helpful. She has been sitting with me for half an hour, just going through all my classes one by one, making sure that they, and I, have done what they have to and reminding me of deadlines and things. I shouldn’t need this though - I’m not a newbie. I’ve been doing this for 20 years, at this school for 7 years.

@Bunnyjo Thank you for your very detailed answer. I have not been made aware of review dates - I didn’t see this one coming, which I think is why this “HR Lady” email has freaked me out. I’m in a union but I actually don’t think that there is a rep in the school - because it’s a private school.

@NotMeNoNo Your “lots of mistakes” employee sounds like me. I just keep messing up. I’m confused and exhausted, but I love my job. When I’m in front of the class, everything is fine. I know my subject inside out. But when it comes to the admin I’m hopeless.

Please make sure you take someone with you to any meetings. This is how schools manage people out.

Are you in the teachers pension scheme? Some schemes like the LGPS will pay you your pension unreduced if you are over a certain age and dismissed for capability reasons. I'm not sure if the tps does, but it may be worth exploring if you are over 55.

I'm an HR person at an independent school. Are you in a union? The school doesn't have to recognise that union in order for you to bring a rep as your companion to disciplinary meetings. Although this doesn't sound like an official disciplinary meeting it would be worth notifying your union now and getting some advice. In my experience, the presence of a union rep helps if this escalates and a settlement agreement will be more likely than a dismissal.

You won't be sacked at this meeting but you need to get your ducks in a row. Show what you have put in place to improve your performance, show evidence of improvement and bring details of GP / CBT appointments and details of medication.

From my knowledge of the state school system the normal process for a member of staff that is not managing would initially be 'informal support' - this would involve you having targets but agreeing ways in which support would be provided by senior staff in the school, against which your performance would be judged over a fixed time period to see if you improve. (The school has to justify how they have supported you if they are to start a formal process.) If you fail to manage to improve, they then start a 'formal' capability process. My guess is that they have done the first part and are now going to say they will be starting 'formal' capability. I would suggest consulting whatever Union you are in prior to attending this requested meeting. At this point schools often hope the person will 'jump ship' at the thought, as anyone on a formal capability process will find it hard to find another job as this, I think, had to be declared by the referee. If not, then it's quite a lot of work for schools to undertake this process with a member of staff - it's hard to get people out of permanent teaching jobs via a formal process unless there is gross misconduct.

If you feel your work has been so affected by menopause it does seem that that should be a real priority for you to have investigated to be honest - though so many of us are struggling to get appointments I know. They might understandably think that if it is affecting your work that much that it's neglectful of you to carry on being paid to do the job without really exploring how you might support yourself to improve the symptoms. Perhaps if you can show you are now starting that process you may be able to buy yourself some time to get that sorted?

I think this might be the link that explains the process but of course independent schools a. May not have to go through the same process and b. In my experience, quite often get such systems a bit wrong, particularly if they are smaller independents without experienced HR or legal staff behind them.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachmentdata/file/786143/Teacherrappraisalanddcapability-model_policy.pdf

I think the fact that this has been going on for a while yet you haven’t even had a GP appointment isn’t going to look great tbh. You know you can go private via Superdrug as well as the various online private GPS. Might be worth paying as a one off now whilst waiting for your NHS GP appt.

I have every sympathy though, it genuinely sucks

Union rep here and this is very good advice. If they are starting down formal routes they need to advise you of your rights to bring a rep or a colleague, which they haven't done. If it does turn formal get it adjourned. I'd generally want to go along with a member to any meeting that HR are at, or have them take a colleague - always good for emotional support and having a second set of ears.

Good luck.

The LGPS does not pay an unreduced pension if someone is dismissed on capability grounds, regardless of age. It may pay an unreduced pension to someone who is forced to retire early as a result of permanent incapacity to work, but it would never do so in the circumstances described here.

Genuine question. Have you thought of a change of job that you can cope with better?

It sounds like you need to focus on:

• getting the right treatment from a GP to support you
• think about taking on a role as a teacher where you can work part-time or move to something less stressful.

It pretty much looks like it just isn't going to work out in your current workplace, unless you negotiate shorter hours, so instead of trying to soldier on think about how best to improve your situation longer term.

Would it be better as well to be dismissed on medical grounds rather than because of lack of capabilities?

As others have said get clarification on the process and and what the next meeting is really about and tell them you want someone with you.

As a pp mentioned is there a reason you haven't seen a private doctor and got yourself put on HRT?
It really is a miracle drug for many people. It works really quickly as well.

You can book private
'womens health' blood tests online too.

It seems a bit crazy that you haven't managed to see a Doctor for so long.
Have they literally not been accepting appointments.

You could probably see a private doctor within a few day if you wanted.

Not everyone can afford a private doctor's appointment... It took me over 2 years to get a coil fitted, so I completely understand the issues OP is having getting access to a GP who is willing, able and available to start the process of HRT, not to mention the severe shortages of such medications at the moment.

Anyway OP, there are some organisations out there that might be able to help you, or give you info and advice about your rights.

Acas has a section devoted to menopause: www.acas.org.uk/menopause-at-work

Women's health concern is the patient focused arm of the British Menopause Society www.womens-health-concern.org/, and they would be able to give you advice and help you find a specialist doctor as well.

Defiitely talk to your union, menopause is something which uniquely affects women, and then only older women, so as ACAS points out there is a risk of both age and sex discrimination if your work issues are not handled sensitively. You sound like you want to work this out, which is great, and your employer sound like they want to work with you as much as they can too.

Good luck op, I hope things get better for you.