Glass ceiling woes

[Starseeking]

I interviewed for a job recently.

3 interviews down, with 1 more to go (financial sector so pretty usual to have a few) I felt all was going well.

I didn't make it to the 4th interview.

Feedback from the recruiter was that I was technically capable, senior enough to do the job, but they didn't feel warmth from me, and weren't able to get to know who I am as they felt I was holding back.

The recruiter was puzzled, as we've built up a good rapport, he knows me well.

The last question asked in the 3rd interview, by two men, was "Who are you outside of work, what do you spend your time doing?"

I'm quite a private person, and have recently had some personal upheaval; miscarriage, leaving my EXDP, and single parenting 2 DC under 6, one with additional needs. I didn't mention anything about my circumstances family, though I did say I spend time visiting my parents as they live nearby, and a couple of sports I enjoy.

I'm angry and frustrated as it felt that any answer other than husband, 2.4 DC and nanny (it's a highly paid job) would have been frowned upon. One of the interviewers mentioned he'd just had a new baby prior to asking this question, so I felt it was a bit leading, however I understand the way they phrased it was on the legal side of questions you can't ask.

It's possible it could come up again, so how can I answer this type of question and still give a good impression?

"I'm lucky to have family near by so I can visit easily. I also really love to blow off steam by participating in sports.

You can say literally anything. Pets, travel, reading, galleries, yoga, gym, cooking/entertaining etc. etc.

Why do you think that this question represents a glass ceiling?

I'm angry and frustrated as it felt that any answer other than husband, 2.4 DC and nanny (it's a highly paid job) would have been frowned upon.

^You are just using this as an excuse and projecting

Can totally emphasise - 9 of 11 recent interviews was asking this horrid question, after experience of 2 years lockdown, it feels one of the most useless things to ask and it’s not like you can turn it on them.

One HR person scratched their head and came out with it, as the only thing they could think to ask, then when I answered, very nearly asked what is Aqua Aerobics!! before composing them self going does it involve water. Going to work on much more witty answers for when I’m next job looking!!!

Thank you, I will try and rephrase next time, as I'm sure there will be one.

Because it was a ridiculous excuse; if they felt I could do the job and had the right level of seniority, I don't believe a man in a similar situation would have been penalised for the same.

Were any men applying for the post and failed to get it? It's a rubbish question really, I tend to think interviewers should stick to questions relevant to the post. What difference does it make to them what you get up to at home.

Not really. They told me they thought I had the skills to do the job and was at the right level, to my mind personal irrelevance stopped me progressing.

As a single mum to 2 DC, one with additional needs, I have a good support network which includes wraparound care and family, however I didn't get the vibes that saying any of that would impress them.

The stereotypical background for this kind of role, would be a middle aged man married to a SAHM, as it's highly paid specialised work.

I was quite excited about the prospect of it, so will take on board the feedback that I should focus on making my spare time sound more engaging.

Thanks @Userxxxxx, looks like it's not just me in this boat; good luck with your search too!

The 2nd interview was actually with the man currently doing the job, and he actually said he thought I might find it a bit easy, though I thought otherwise. Also, he must have given positive feedback, as I wouldn't have made it through to the 3rd interview otherwise.

I'm keeping my eye out for who eventually gets the job (thank you LinkedIn!) so will be able to report back with an update in about 3 months time

It's a ridiculous reason for not progressing you, yes. There is no way I would provide that feedback to people I was interviewing. They get the job if they can do the job, if there are issues that mean they can't do the job after all, then that's what probation is for. They wanted someone who was socially similar to them.

Agree that is an stupid question and they should not be rejecting people based on the ones like hobbies that are irrelevant to job performance. If you wanted to cause trouble you could take it up with HR as gender discrimination.

Were there any other questions which weren’t about technical skills but more about soft skills (communication etc)? Is it possible that they felt that based on a number of the answers and not just the ‘hobbies’ question? I must admit that I’ve interviewed some very capable people and yet sometimes I’ve not been convinced by their people skills which are crucial in my line of work. That’s not to say they aren’t good with people but the way they’ve answered in interviews hasn’t been enough demonstrate this. Might be worth pushing for more feedback if you can.

They asked me about how I like to be managed, and I explained it using the example of how I like to manage people; by giving them the autonomy to deliver objectives within boundaries, and checking in regularly. I tend to ask probing questions while a project is going on, then extend the line or reel it in depending on how things are going.

I talked about the fact that the vast majority of people I've managed reacting positively to this kind of approach, all except one, who wanted to be micromanaged as they weren't confident in post, and required constant validation. I'm not a fan of micromanaging, so perhaps the boss wanted to do that, and sensed I wouldn't react well to it!

I was talking to a recruiter friend about this set of interviews, and as much as I liked the role, it's probably a good thing they didn't progress me. Mainly because I'm not the kind of person who shares details about their personal life with all and sundry, so if that's what they need to feel someone is good at the job, I'm not the person for it.

Hmmmm, they also mentioned warmth. Do you think you can across as a warm person at work? Is this something people say about you at work or otherwise? (I don't know whether that is something you would necessarily know mind you). If not, perhaps you can think about pre-empting mark downs because of it by working it into your interview as a positive. There is often a question about how you would critique yourself, so perhaps handle it there?

You say you work in finance, there are a lot of quite mathsy/logical people in finance, and perhaps you are really great at your job because of lots of characteristics that come along with that, but the people person part which you might need for more senior roles where you will be leading teams perhaps, where people need to want to follow your lead, be ok with being instructed, criticised etc, needs something else besides those kind of local, straight forward approaches etc.... In this organisation anyway.

It might be an idea to reflect in interviews, like saying 'I find 'x' works, but on the other hand, when I had someone who wanted to be micromanaged (not that word!!!!) I adjusted in this way' (talk about what you did or even say 'I didn't do 'x' and I should have'). So you sound flexible and thoughtful about managing others, which is really quite complex a thing!

That question was a clanger, I agree its as inappropriate and irrelevant. And who really cares that he had a baby recently. But given you might get it again, I'd probably say as well as trying to give a good answer, it might require a shift in stance from you. Could you visibly or ostensibly come across as more relaxed at this time. Is this a time to maybe crack a joke, something like 'Wow, I'm inspired that you even think I might have time to do lots outside of work, I'm really very intrigued about how you fill your time! Of course I'm always on the job or thinking about it.. However, yes, when I can eek out some space I love to take walks, breathe the fresh air, make the most of museums, lockdown taught me that the simple things in life are important to value'.

I think that gives them nothing but is quite full and if probed you can talk more about it as I'm sure you've been to a museum sometime and you walked somewhere at some point recently (presuming you are able bodied), if not adjust that kind of response accordingly?

Thanks so much for this advice @philmewithluv, it's so helpful. I hadn't thought about framing things like that, and what you have suggested sounds so much more positive than my answers!

I've worked at my current workplace on two separate occasions over the past 15 years. On my first day back after 5 years since I left, my team (of 25 people, 15 of whom were there when I left) made welcome back banners and brought cakes, so I take that to mean I mustn't be too bad as a manager on the personal qualities side.

Having been through a few interviews now, I've realised that to be offered the C-Suite positions (my next role will be a Board one) it's not so much what you know or your technical strengths, a lot about securing it is actually how you say, what you say.

Oh absolutely, it's back to the beginning, really isn't it? Those graduate jobs when there was nothing (really) to distinguish one applicant from another so that it came down to who they felt most comfortable with. It's disconcerting to think this appears again at the most senior of positions, after all those years of elbow grease which eventually did stand us apart.

I mean you have a child with additional needs. You are likely incredibly flexible and reflective, able to roll with unexpected curve balls, and critically work with brains and bodies that work differently. Work all of that in. You can do it without telling them your life story. Instead you can perhaps think about where that has helped you in work and start from there when talking about it in interviews, you don't need to say 'because my child has AN I can do this'. There is a glass ceiling, so it's time we use what our struggles actually give us in terms of experience and knowledge.

Also, make something big out of small things you do? So if you're on here giving other parents with AN kids advice, can you say that is something you love doing, you don't have to say 'on mumsnet', or again 'because I have a child with AN I love doing this'.

Interviewer: So, Jenny, what do you do in your free time? I personally love singing nursery rhymes to my newborn, he's delightful.
You: I'm really big on inclusion. One of the areas I am really passionate about is (insert here your knowledge base). I spend a lot of time supporting parents and carers who have children with AN. It is really a minefield. There is so much difference in the services families can receive, it's the old 'postcode lottery'. I take what I have learned from talking-to so many families and pass knowledge on to others. Such amazing things have happened. For example (you insert here).

I just get the impression that like a lot of high achieving women you are doing loads besides the simple sounding 'kids and job'. Reframe. Reframe. Like a friend of mine says. You help your parents out regularly, does that include their friends too? If so you actually support local elderly people. With shopping, bills, checking in on them. Not everyone is doing that. It takes up your time. Your adult Duke of Edinburgh Award or whatever they were looking for! We need recognition for what we do. Give it to them in a package they can appreciate, tie a pretty bow around it.

I'm making myself laugh!

UANBU to be frustrated. What's the senior management team like, diverse or a monoculture?

they didn't feel warmth from me, and weren't able to get to know who I am as they felt I was holding back

But they were right weren't they? You were holding back. We understand why but they obviously picked up on it.

As for the warmth comment, I've recently rejected candidates for the same reason. I work in Financial Services in a senior role and in the areas I work in, those interpersonal skills are the most important. Being technically strong and very experienced is a given. Everyone's got amazing experience, that's expected and you won't make it to a first round interview without it. After that it's about fit. If you can't get (usually difficult) people to warm to you quickly, you won't fit in and will be less successful in the role. We are overrun with well qualified candidates. What gets people through to a job offer with us is personality and interpersonal skills. We want to see the real person, not a more formal, rehearsed facade.

I don't think this is glass ceiling related at all.

The trouble is that people relate quicker and build up a rapport quicker with people who are similiar to them. So if they are looking for things they have in common, like a love of golf/sport etc, and the OP isn't like them, even though she can do the job, she doesn't get it as she doesn't fit in. Very vague reason along with the leading "I have a baby" comment.

Obviously we are all just guessing here but it happens.

@HundredMilesAnHour

I think most of us do though, don't we? And I think where we draw the line between personal and private is likely a cultural thing too. This company that OP interviewed at should not call themselves diverse if everyone in the office needs to talk about their children to get along there. Or perhaps her ovaries were enough to tick their diversity boxes?

People don't want to talk about lots of things for their own reasons. OP said she has a child with additional needs. Who knows how that is affecting her. Perhaps she doesn't want to cry in her interview over the stress of it all (I mean nothing by that OP). She recently had a miscarriage and maybe she doesn't want to talk for several minutes about his newborn. She's recently left a long term partner. Come on now, she's hot at her job, what more do people want? She can demonstrate good leadership and apparently did. She wants to keep some parts of her life to herself, that should not disqualify her from the job, but in this case it has. To be fair I don't want to know these things about my manager, it would create a strange dynamic between us. So not everyone wants that in a leader or manager. When I think about the boards of companies I invest in I really don't need to know about their children except where that impacts the job directly. I really think their expectation was too much.

I'm really curious about which of those parts of her life she should have been more candid about? She needs to rehearse because this doesn't come naturally to her or she seemingly doesn't want to do it. What if she herself has trouble with social communication and interaction in a neurodiverse way? Steve Jobs did just fine revolutionising the world. She'll do just fine with a bit of coaching and thinking about how to get round this.

I really do wonder whether the interviewer mentions this baby to the male candidates. Though we'll probably never know. As though all women want total about babies. I've had 4 and I really really don't go to work for that, I have enough of mine at home to hear about yours!

It would be interesting to see whether male candidates have been asked this question and if so, how they answered. I’ve had a lot of interviews (not for c-suite) and with the exception of the civil service, I have only been asked this by a male interview panel or when the lead interviewer has been male. Personally, I’ve always felt it was a way to get me to confirm I have a partner and therefore l, as I’m of childbearing age, that I will obviously be having a baby as soon as I’ve qualified for maternity leave.

DH has worked at the same place since he graduated so I’m not sure if he would have been asked these questions in interviews. However, I know that for a promotion presentation (on the advice of senior management) he did put that he was recently married and had bought a house because it made him look “settled” and he wouldn’t be in a rush to leave or uproot his life to the other side of the country for a job offer. So if this is true and it’s not just working out who has a potential SAHW, then maybe answer along the lines of you have lived here for x years, all your family is local and you see them regularly. You also have several links to the community because you take part in these local sports teams/groups and you have a really great network of family and non-family here.

I think these are rubbish sort of questions used to fill in for having nothing relevant to ask. I've been asked them (even for senior roles) and gave them suitable replies 'I'm a wife and mum so do mum and family type things same as everyone else'. OH was asked what he 'brought to the party' apparently he apologised as he didn't realise there was a party but he couldn't stay long as he had to get home. Said he didn't care what they thought as it was a stupid question, the project was based on his work and couldn't go ahead without him.

This is all so useful, I really do need to reframe my answers, as looking back, I was so obviously holding back personal information, as I felt it would put me at a disadvantage.

Are you an HR professional/executive coach? I feel like I could really benefit from that type of thing, and perhaps do some practice interviews on those curve ball questions which have nothing to do with technical capability. That's the kind of service I would pay good money for.