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Original poster

Glass ceiling woes

44 replies

Starseeking · 05/06/2022 11:51

I interviewed for a job recently.

3 interviews down, with 1 more to go (financial sector so pretty usual to have a few) I felt all was going well.

I didn't make it to the 4th interview.

Feedback from the recruiter was that I was technically capable, senior enough to do the job, but they didn't feel warmth from me, and weren't able to get to know who I am as they felt I was holding back.

The recruiter was puzzled, as we've built up a good rapport, he knows me well.

The last question asked in the 3rd interview, by two men, was "Who are you outside of work, what do you spend your time doing?"

I'm quite a private person, and have recently had some personal upheaval; miscarriage, leaving my EXDP, and single parenting 2 DC under 6, one with additional needs. I didn't mention anything about my circumstances family, though I did say I spend time visiting my parents as they live nearby, and a couple of sports I enjoy.

I'm angry and frustrated as it felt that any answer other than husband, 2.4 DC and nanny (it's a highly paid job) would have been frowned upon. One of the interviewers mentioned he'd just had a new baby prior to asking this question, so I felt it was a bit leading, however I understand the way they phrased it was on the legal side of questions you can't ask.

It's possible it could come up again, so how can I answer this type of question and still give a good impression?

OP posts:

Original poster

Starseeking · 14/06/2022 20:07

Shellsbelles · 13/06/2022 23:20

UANBU to be frustrated. What's the senior management team like, diverse or a monoculture?

When I looked at the Group Board and the Exec Board, it was almost all older white men, though there were a couple of female NEDs. The men who interviewed me fit that profile.

I'm also from a BAME background, and around 40, though I look younger, maybe mid-30's, so perhaps they thought I might want to go on maternity leave soon.

OP posts:

Original poster

Starseeking · 14/06/2022 20:10

HundredMilesAnHour · 13/06/2022 23:27

they didn't feel warmth from me, and weren't able to get to know who I am as they felt I was holding back

But they were right weren't they? You were holding back. We understand why but they obviously picked up on it.

As for the warmth comment, I've recently rejected candidates for the same reason. I work in Financial Services in a senior role and in the areas I work in, those interpersonal skills are the most important. Being technically strong and very experienced is a given. Everyone's got amazing experience, that's expected and you won't make it to a first round interview without it. After that it's about fit. If you can't get (usually difficult) people to warm to you quickly, you won't fit in and will be less successful in the role. We are overrun with well qualified candidates. What gets people through to a job offer with us is personality and interpersonal skills. We want to see the real person, not a more formal, rehearsed facade.

I don't think this is glass ceiling related at all.

But what does fit really mean? I've seen the driest men people holding Board level roles who quite frankly have no personality. I've witnessed some of the worst people managers sitting at the top of the tree. They all fit one outward profile, which I am very far removed from. How did they all get there?

OP posts:

girlmom21 · 14/06/2022 20:14

This wasn't the only interview question. There were plenty of others. There would have also been other candidates.

If you had have mentioned your children you could just as easily say that's why you didn't get the job.

The man with a young baby shows they're not against people with children. You may well find he mentioned that to encourage you that it was ok to open up as you may have common ground.

I would take their feedback on board.

Original poster

Starseeking · 14/06/2022 20:16

Shellsbelles · 13/06/2022 23:37

The trouble is that people relate quicker and build up a rapport quicker with people who are similiar to them. So if they are looking for things they have in common, like a love of golf/sport etc, and the OP isn't like them, even though she can do the job, she doesn't get it as she doesn't fit in. Very vague reason along with the leading "I have a baby" comment.

Obviously we are all just guessing here but it happens.

This really resonated with me. As mentioned, being in finance, working at the level I work at, I have an atypical profile. I have to work hard on helping interviewers feel like I'm "one of them", beyond the technical side of things.

OP posts:

Original poster

Starseeking · 14/06/2022 20:28

philmewithluv · 14/06/2022 01:14

@HundredMilesAnHour

I think most of us do though, don't we? And I think where we draw the line between personal and private is likely a cultural thing too. This company that OP interviewed at should not call themselves diverse if everyone in the office needs to talk about their children to get along there. Or perhaps her ovaries were enough to tick their diversity boxes?

People don't want to talk about lots of things for their own reasons. OP said she has a child with additional needs. Who knows how that is affecting her. Perhaps she doesn't want to cry in her interview over the stress of it all (I mean nothing by that OP). She recently had a miscarriage and maybe she doesn't want to talk for several minutes about his newborn. She's recently left a long term partner. Come on now, she's hot at her job, what more do people want? She can demonstrate good leadership and apparently did. She wants to keep some parts of her life to herself, that should not disqualify her from the job, but in this case it has. To be fair I don't want to know these things about my manager, it would create a strange dynamic between us. So not everyone wants that in a leader or manager. When I think about the boards of companies I invest in I really don't need to know about their children except where that impacts the job directly. I really think their expectation was too much.

I'm really curious about which of those parts of her life she should have been more candid about? She needs to rehearse because this doesn't come naturally to her or she seemingly doesn't want to do it. What if she herself has trouble with social communication and interaction in a neurodiverse way? Steve Jobs did just fine revolutionising the world. She'll do just fine with a bit of coaching and thinking about how to get round this.

I really do wonder whether the interviewer mentions this baby to the male candidates. Though we'll probably never know. As though all women want total about babies. I've had 4 and I really really don't go to work for that, I have enough of mine at home to hear about yours!

Have you identified me lol

In addition to everything you mention, I'm also onto the second house I'm trying to buy after the first one fell through, battling again with CMS after EXDP told them a load of lies, Taking EXDP to court to try and get a regular contact schedule in place, and arranging EHCP for my DC with additional needs. On top of working full-time.

No need to apologise about the tears comment, I'm tough as old boots...except when it comes to things to do with my DC with additional needs. I cried big ugly howling tears in the car on the way home when visiting a school which will be perfect for them, as I realised that environment will be better for them than mainstream with support.

A few random things could set me off, and mentioning my DC with additional needs is quite honestly one of those things. I genuinely don't know how I would react. It's probably one of the reasons why I'm quite closed off when it comes to personal things in a professional setting; I don't want to break down.

I do need to work on coming across as more natural with that side of things, I've most definitely taken that away from this experience and your advice.

OP posts:

Original poster

Starseeking · 14/06/2022 20:34

@InTheNightWeWillWish

We all know that a man stating he has 4 DC (say), is societally viewed differently to if a woman said the same thing.

Even before I split with my EXDP, on every single rare night I went out, I'd be asked who was looking after the DC/who are the DC with. EXDP never ever got asked the same.

From reading studies, employers consider men with families to be stable providers, who will be committed to the company. I don't recall reading the same thing about women with families, though people may know of some research showing this.

OP posts:

Happypanda22 · 14/06/2022 20:45

Hi. Very rarely post so apologies if this is not useful. I hire regularly at senior level and it strikes me as odd to be asking who you are outside work since it isn’t relevant to the role inside. Ditto that you weren’t warm enough…. an odd thing to say. As you will have frequently encountered people sadly find it easier to hire people like them (even If they deny it !) and the world is still run by white Middle Aged men … So when they are asking about you outside work I am a bit sceptical that they want authenticity (eg your lovely kids) and more that they want reassurance that you will fit and not shake them up too much. Can you explore things to share which are genuine interests but fit more with the likely environment eg interest in tech or travel or something …

Happypanda22 · 14/06/2022 20:50

and you are right to call that at senior level it can often be about fit (skill a given) and that can be a positive too - means more rejections (which is hard) but when you do find the right job more likely to work out (took me 12 goes to find my current wonderful senior job!) Might make sense to do some practice / a bit of coaching as you were thinking of - helps build confidence for the curve balls and may also help you work out quicker when the organisation isn’t for you. And good Luck. From the way you describe yourself sounds like an organisation will be fortunate to hire you

Original poster

Starseeking · 14/06/2022 21:17

Thanks @Happypanda22. My initial reaction to this particular rejection was one of frustration, but the advice on this thread had really helped me turn things around in my mind. I can't afford to go in somewhere and be turfed out during probation for not being "the right fit" as I'll shortly have a whopping new mortgage, and it'll just be me servicing it.

I now see that I need to make some style changes, as I think I do come across as being quite formal, so am going to ask my organisational coach about how I can approach this next time I see her. I'll also try and accept that it will most likely take me a little while to find the right organisation, but that when I do, they'll be accepting of the whole me.

OP posts:

Happypanda22 · 15/06/2022 14:50

Best of luck ! And well worth taking it a little more slowly to find a role which works on both sides

Shellsbelles · 15/06/2022 22:12

I am disgusted for you, OP. I don't know if it's worth looking for more feedback, looking for clarification on what they meant and where you didn't meet requirements and hopefully watch them squirm.

But probably a good decision in the long run to keep looking for a better fit for you! A company where diversity is valued and you can be yourself. All the best.

Original poster

Starseeking · 15/06/2022 23:24

There's not much more for me to find out @Shellsbelles. My executive search contact fed back clearly that they felt I could do the job, and was at the right level of seniority. It effectively comes down to them having "a feeling" that they'd prefer not to work with me due to me not opening up personally in the way they felt I should have done; not something you can legislate against, really.

I'll chalk the experience up, and hopefully reframing some of my answers to the softer side/personal questions will take me through next time. I'm not concerned about the technical side of things, as I know my stuff there.

OP posts:

philmewithluv · 16/06/2022 04:11

@Starseeking

Yes! game recognises game!

But really, you sound like you are going through a lot right now. I wish you all the very best, you'll get that perfect job!

BigFatLiar · 16/06/2022 07:23

Starseeking · 15/06/2022 23:24

Do you know who got the job?

If there are two or three people who are equally suited to the post it may come down to we prefer X over Y, they seem cheerier/smile more/better handshake, any old reason. Nothing you can do about it really, we all make similar decisions daily.

Original poster

Starseeking · 16/06/2022 07:54

I don't at the moment @BigFatLiar, though looking at LinkedIn in a couple of months, which I intend to do, should hopefully reveal all.

OP posts:

Original poster

Starseeking · 16/06/2022 07:55

If you are taking on new clients remotely @philmewithluv, please PM me. In all seriousness, I really like your coaching style

OP posts:

Shellsbelles · 16/06/2022 22:35

You can ask for your interview notes and scoring sheet.

Shellsbelles · 16/06/2022 22:38

Having an all white male senior management team, all white male (I think?) interview panel, making leading comments about babies, admitting you are perfectly capable of doing the job...but then offering it to who? Will be interesting (probably boringly predictable) to see.

BigFatLiar · 18/06/2022 10:39

Shellsbelles · 16/06/2022 22:38

Would it matter if they were an all woman black panel?

We're assuming that whoever gets there job isn't as qualified or capable as OP. If the two top candidates are a man and woman do we give it to the woman simply because she's a women? I'm sure there's lots don't mind being seen as the token woman provided they get paid, I would want the job because I was good enough and because they wanted me. Being told by a recruiter that you're a great match for the job isn't a recommendation in itself. The other person's recruiter is probably telling them the same thing.

Wait and see who gets the post, worst case it's someone already there as they'll have been wasting your time so they can go through the motions of recruiting while already having someone.

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