Not skilled enough to keep a job

[Mashinga]

I’ve completed a web design and PHP course online. I’ve invested maybe 100 hours. I’ve applied for jobs and been very clear that I’m a mum who has done this IT training at home while my DS was at nursery, I have no prior training in IT (my degree was in history). I’ve shown interviewers my portfolio and said that’s the extent of my current skills.

I’ve been hired twice. Both times I’ve been sacked within a couple of weeks because I couldn’t do stuff they were asking for, they wanted more programming skills than I had. Even though I was very clear about the extent of my skills.

I don’t know what else to do. Surely the employer should know what skills they want and ensure the candidate has them?

I should say this is not a new experience for me. There have been a few occasions prior to this where employers have hired me on minimum wage and been disappointed to discover I can’t do stuff that’s way beyond my pay grade. DH says it’s just shitty little employers wanting the moon on a stick for min wage. But it’s really knocked my confidence and I now feel like I’m just not skilled enough to get a job.

Losing the estate agent job tbh is a lucky escape as others have said already.

The other role is also a lucky escape as the senior developer was abusive towards you. We've had inexperienced new starters in my company before who have turned out not to be able to pick things up as quickly as expected but that's no reason to shout and rant at them in the way you've described. They should have done a technical test or at least you should have been interviewed by a developer at some point.

What/where was the MSc course you spoke to the tutor about, @Mashinga , can you link to it? It sounds like it wasn’t one that was even remotely suitable for a career in programming.

What other programming Masters conversion courses have you looked at?

@Mashinga - I’m so sorry about the terrible experience you have had. 1) the IT manager should have been sacked for bullying. If he has a problem with HR making the appointment, that is his problem to take up with them and you should NOT have been treated like that.

2) The job description was NOT accurate, which is not your fault.

I can’t answer the question about whether you should continue in programming or not - that is a very personal question that depends on lots of factors - your personal interest, aptitude, drive to do extra work, other family commitments. If you want to continue with the programming - there are some coding challenges online like hacker rank that help practice problem solving skills. there are also women’s coding groups where people can support each other with their learning (more like peer support I think rather than teaching).
But also just browse general jobs online to see what else is out there - there is no shame if programming is not for you. Sending you good wishes.

This is really good advice.

www.uhi.ac.uk/en/courses/msc-web-technologies/

I was looking at this MSc course because it’s available online. My mistake it’s called “web technologies” not “internet technologies”. I wouldn’t be allowed to do the more technical version of the course because I don’t have a technical background. I’d have to do “web technologies with management”. And they said they’d push me towards the less technical modules for the same reason. So out of 6 modules, 2 would be business/research and not programming at all. 2 would be Web Applications Development (basic html and JavaScript) and Advanced Web Programming (PHP). And probably Data Modelling and Data Analytics (not programming, something to do with project management and structuring information).

They seem to think that graduates go on to get entry level web dev jobs, which is what I want. But I don’t want to do the business and research and project management, I want to just do the 2 programming modules. So they directed me towards vocational courses instead.

What are you aiming to get from this thread, OP?

Where on that website does it say you will be able to do a dev role after doing the ‘with management’ course op? And which modules did you pick?

What I don’t get is how I’ve done the programming skills you’d do on that course. The ones the course staff directed me towards and said were the same skills just not wrapped in an academic masters. Which they seemed to think was sufficient to get their graduates web dev jobs. And I’ve applied for jobs and got them. All well and good so far.

But then I keep getting sacked and told I can’t do enough programming to keep the job? Even though they knew my CV and everything before they hired me! And I don’t understand how they’ve gone “yep this candidate fits our needs, let’s hire her” then a fortnight later they kick me out because I don’t meet their needs?

Their advice hasn’t been terribly helpful for you so far. I’d stop thinking about
what they said and start looking at a more specific programming MSc conversion course.

Where on that website does it say you will be able to do a dev role after doing the ‘with management’ course op?
It doesn’t. I spoke to them. They said graduates of both courses typically go on to entry level web design jobs. Or to UX roles. Or to further study in computing for example PhD.

Unfortunately I think you don't know enough to properly understand what you don't know. For example if you think that Data Modelling on the Web is "something to do with project management and structuring information".

You've been hired twice by people who didn't understand the first thing about programming themselves. Once by a HR team only and one by some estate agents. Neither of them did enough investigating to understand whether the topics on your CV were understood at a suitable level to do the work they wanted you to do.

Is it the difference between a web developer job (that you were after) and a job in web development (which could be sales or management).

That course would have taught you enough to sound like you know what you're talking about (needed to understand what the programmers in your hypothetical team are doing) but not enough to be able to do their job. Which is why you can get jobs but not keep them. Maybe the sales devision of a programming company would work? You seem to be good at selling skills you don't have.

Also a lot of courses are just there to make money, plenty don't get you the job promised. And careers advisors are like fortune tellers, their advice is just what you want to hear.

The MSc person was offering you some advice for free not giving you careers counselling. It's one persons opinion, you don't know their background or level of understanding. They also have no duty of care towards you. I agree it's time to write off what they said to you as misguided advice.

Sorry, the 'selling skills you don't have' sounds snarky, it was meant positively.

OP, I spent over 30 years as a software developer (ending up in the security area - as an aside, this is no more lone-wolf than anything else, in fact, less so, as there are a lot of awkward conversations with stressed customers...).

I am not the most socially adept person either.
One thing I learned over the years, through bitter experience, was, if a discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere, take a step back and get everyone to lay out their case from the very start.
99% of times, there is a fact that not everyone was aware of, or that people are rating at very different levels of importance. Once that is found and highlighted, the discussion can get moving again to go find a solution. Happy days.

So. You said yourself you're not particularly keen on being a programmer. So forget about why your brief attempts have not gone well. It's not as if it was your life's dream anyway!
Time to take that step back and look at the big picture...
You want a job, one where you can apply yourself, progress, make money. You hoped that, if you did the training you did, that programming would be that job, but you do know now that you were misinformed.

So, the real question is not about "why would someone in academia say something that wasn't true"(¡) or, "why did I get hired and fired?" (+)

the real question is,

"With my background and skills and aptitudes, what line of work should I be considering?"

My advice: start a new thread, lay out your education, work, and other history, what you find natural and what you really don't, and ask for opinions. You'll get more useful info there than from careers advisors, because the people on MN have actually done these jobs, whereas careers advisors have just, well, been careers advisors! And experience is the best teacher.

¡ because academics don't always know that much about the outside world, not to mention that like many humans, they fib or big things up. Sad but true. They want to make their course sound worthwhile - whether or not it actually is.

** Covered extensively already!

www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/apprenticeship-standards/game-programmer-v1-0

I would suggest looking for an apprenticeship or at least speaking to a qualified careers adviser that can give you proper guidance on finding a role that you find rewarding and fulfilling

Can you list the skills that you have or list the projects that you’ve put together in your portfolio?

Software development can be all those things that you listed (flexible, well paid, time spent in deep focus) and you do seem to have been shafted by being hired twice by non technical people. It still might be for you as a job but you probably need more training and or practice. But it’s hard to tell from what you’ve written.

I think you’re really confused op about this whole arena, the terminology used, what it means, and what your skill set is.

you seem to think whatever this person told you was gospel. It’s clear there is a potential you don’t understand what you actually heard.

you also seem to think that because you’ve done something similar in terms of training in your own head, then you must be at the same level as a masters, you’re not. Clearly. Becayse you do not have the skill set required to be even a basic programmer. For obvious reasons you’ve done very little to no training. Somewhere between zero and sixty hours training, I’m not sure which, and no where near the 240 hours the course requires. 60 hours, which I am not sure you’ve even done is no where near 240 hours. I am unsure why you are so determined it’s nearly the same thing.

a job in web development doesn’t mean you can be a web developer. And you’ve done a tiny percentage of the programming training.

please stop trying to convince yourself you’re at masters standard after three weeks all in of training and a week of programming max . You are not. Do not tell employers you are, either.

it’s clear also either yout employers didn’t know what they needed, or they thought you had the skills. If you are trying to convince them, as you are trying to convince us, you’re a masters level programmer, then there lies the issue. They are obviously of the impression you’re trained in the basics when they hire you so ask you to do things they think you can do. Then they find out you have no idea. In addition, completing a brief (and this is brief) on line course, does not actually mean you are any good.

I don’t get why you can’t understand it. It’s very simple. You think you’re more qualified than you are, in fact you are convinced you are, when you are no where near it, and it seems logical that this is why people are employing you becayse you are telling them the same thing and they are very very quickly finding out you don’t have a clue. You are literally being fired within about two weeks.

Look you're clearly looking for someone to blame - ok the university is to blame. That course does not give you the skills you need. You needed a conversion course.

Many many many people have told you the skills you need and how to get them. If this is still what you want to do,follow the extremely good and free advice you have been given.

Or do something else. Whinging on this thread isn't helpful to you.

First off, are you logical and mathematical? Programming is about logic at the end of the day and often about maths too. If these aren’t your thing, then think about a different part of IT like application support or pre-sales. There are lots of jobs!m in other parts of tech.

Secondly you’ve had very little training so far and it’s not a field that lends itself that well to self-tuition from scratch. If you don’t know what OO is, you’re right at the beginning as it is covered in A level CS. Can you do a degree apprenticeship for instance or one of the Masters conversion you mention. If you can’t, can you do some free open source programming to learn from others? But again only do it if you are logical and enjoy programming a lot.

Your logic is a little painful to follow, OP.

If I’ve understood correctly:

• You read on here that programming is easy to pick up and offers flexible working hours.
• You have very little interest in programming other than this.
• You have no background in programming or IT in general.

Based on the above, you:

• Approached the University of the Highlands and Islands to enquire about their Masters in Web Technologies.
• Were told by the tutor that only two of the modules were pure programming and that some people from the course go into entry level programming roles.

From this, you concluded that if you independently studied the same amount of hours in programming, you will have the same level of programming skill as someone who took the course.

Unfortunately...

Straight off the bat, programming isn’t easy to pick up when you have no background or interest in it. Additionally, junior programming roles tend to offer the least flexibility in terms of working hours and location as you need more supervision and training.

The course you chose to enquire about is clearly unsuitable, which the tutor was desperately trying to express to you. It’s certainly not one a History graduate looking to train in programming would take.

Most (if not all) of the people who invest their time and money that course will have both a background and interest in IT. You have neither. They will be the ones who go into programming roles the tutor spoke about.

The fact you’ve come to the conclusion that if you study the equivalent of two programming modules offered by a random MSC conversion in web tech at UCHI you will then have the skills to work as a programmer is... incorrect.

You were unlucky with the jobs, but they never should have hired you.

Time to go back to the drawing board.

I saw your reply and you aren’t hired into with a team of developers. It’s sounds like a place where they expect someone to get a Wordpress site done. You need to know what position you actually want to get. The poster who said self taught with a portfolio has it right. If you are to do a masters or bachelors degree, with your attitude you still won’t be able to pass a tech coding test in a place where you work with other devs in a team. And you need to be a place like that to have someone senior to mentor you. The programming part is largely self taught. The degree teaches things which you can’t learn easily from code bootcamp and online resources.

This.

Both interviewers failed and themselves. Some competency or technical questions would have saved everyone both times I expect.

I think it's terrible that coding and programming is seen as an easy way to make money, flexibly fitting around other things. It's fucking hard, and you need to have the skills and passion for it to be good at it. It's not easy.