Not skilled enough to keep a job

[Mashinga]

I’ve completed a web design and PHP course online. I’ve invested maybe 100 hours. I’ve applied for jobs and been very clear that I’m a mum who has done this IT training at home while my DS was at nursery, I have no prior training in IT (my degree was in history). I’ve shown interviewers my portfolio and said that’s the extent of my current skills.

I’ve been hired twice. Both times I’ve been sacked within a couple of weeks because I couldn’t do stuff they were asking for, they wanted more programming skills than I had. Even though I was very clear about the extent of my skills.

I don’t know what else to do. Surely the employer should know what skills they want and ensure the candidate has them?

I should say this is not a new experience for me. There have been a few occasions prior to this where employers have hired me on minimum wage and been disappointed to discover I can’t do stuff that’s way beyond my pay grade. DH says it’s just shitty little employers wanting the moon on a stick for min wage. But it’s really knocked my confidence and I now feel like I’m just not skilled enough to get a job.

In both those cases you've been hired by people who know even less than you do. You need a position where you are a trainee or junior.

I hold my hands up to being a shite programmer - and at 50i don’t give a flying fuck about staying up to date. What I do have though is a software engineering degree and 25 years industrial experience…

without understanding the fundamentals of software engineering. 100 hours playing with PHP won’t cut it.

look at local authority work. It’ll pay the same and be more secure. You could start with ict admin.

@Mashinga The second job - the estate agent - those jobs are traps. You never want to be the only dev as a junior. You’ve no one to learn from - and no one to structure the work in a way that’s accessible for you.

You want a large company, who have proper training and development baked in - and have an idea of what’s reasonable for an entry level hire.

Job 2 was being cheap.

Job 1 you were shafted. It’s never worked out for me when I’ve not been recruited by my manager.

You can make it - but one way or another it will involve a lot of learning. An apprenticeship type thing might unlock childcare support to make it possible?

I haven’t read the entire thread but I’m a software developer. Object oriented programming is 101 and everyone who is developer should know it.

Better keep quiet at work then! The only reason I've even heard of the phrase is from Microserfs by Douglas Coupland. Doesn't seem to have hindered my work as a software developer so far.

And I habe no idea what that MSc is about because it was a running joke at my uni that tge MSc students put more hours in than final year engineering undergrads and we had 30+hrs lectures a week. Was not a “light” option.

There’s not going to be any tree we uninvited in a job where you’re the only IT staff is there. I have no idea how you thought you’d be able to do that job.

You really need to research what these jobs entail and then do a course, or your own learning, really focussed on that with quite a lot more than 100 hours.

My son has just finished his 4-year MA in computer science (only his viva tomorrow to go). He is definite for a 2:1 and on for a First. How can your 100 hours compete? What were the job descriptions?

Sorry, MEng…

OP you dont sound overly fussed about working in programming. I've just got a job with the environment agency, I'm starting off in an admin based role and hoping to move to a different area in the future (my degree is in environmental science) however they are very family friendly £24k a year, hybrid working so minimum 2 days in the office. Maybe a similar ICT/admin role would be suitable for you, they seem big on training and developing staff so once you are in you could move to a position that interests you lore in the future. They have various positions all over the country.

Both jobs were advertised as Junior PHP Developer and Junior Web Developer. Neither had any training though. I was just given work and sacked when it was beyond me.

I can understand why the web job had no training - there was nobody to train me. That probably was a case of them wanting to hire for min wage and not being happy when they got the level of skills they were paying for! They basically got sick of paying their web company £25 for each page update and thought it would be cheaper to just hire someone and bring it in house. Not understanding what skills the person would need or how much they should be paying. They needed someone much more experienced than me for a much higher salary.

But the PHP job didn’t have any training either and that’s puzzling because they had senior staff available. They didn’t assess my skills when I started in order to give me stuff that was within my abilities. They didn’t provide any training plan. Just gave me work and sacked me when I couldn’t do it. I got the feeling I wasn’t wanted in their young white male office.

OP, gently. 100 hours is not enough. What the advisor told you is not relevant. You can tell it's not enough because you've done the 100 hours and you've lost two jobs. So arguing the toss about this is pointless. Empiricism is your friend here.

I have trained many many juniors and taught many people to code. It's reasonably easy to work through basic preset projects; it's a huge leap to the next step, where you are writing your own code that solves business problems. It takes a long time to become even basically functional as a programmer, in fact.

Bootcamps can be a great start and there's a lot of on the job training available as it's a short supply profession. But you must be able to solve problems. This is the number one skill of programmers. Start there.

Sometimes people are advised to try programming because they have social development impairments, and this can sometimes be a good call, but you need to be able to solve problems using logical rules. The rules in themselves are only a tool in programming. If you have issues with pedantic fixation, or "shoulds and oughts" over pragmatism, you urgently need to address that in order to succeed in programming as a professional job. It is very rarely a solitary job, in fact. Developers typically work in teams-- "cross functional Agile teams" or whatever and lots of negotiation and change management is required. Colleagues are often pretty understanding about social communication difficulties - it comes with the territory - but you still need to do the work.

Saying that, there is a long tail of solitary/solo roles in Cybersecurity, which might suit you much better (based on our brief interaction here). The Capslock bootcamp might be a good option for you. Cyber isn't really my area so that's not a solid rec.

You better had keep quiet at work then. I'm a software dev and would expect every single programmer from trainee upwards to understand what object orientated programming was. It's an extremely fundamental concept.

The second job - the estate agent - those jobs are traps. You never want to be the only dev as a junior. You’ve no one to learn from - and no one to structure the work in a way that’s accessible for you.
I know that now. But at the time I was just happy to be offered a job so I took it. And it was “junior” and I didn’t know there wasn’t any “senior”! Then they asked me to build some really advanced web tools without any understanding of what skills would be required to build such tools. And sacked me when I couldn’t.

Job 1 you were shafted. It’s never worked out for me when I’ve not been recruited by my manager.
I don’t know why the IT manager (senior PHP programmer) wasn’t in the interview. My best guess was that they took it out of his hands because he kept picking white men. Every programmer was a white man and they kept talking about how keen they were to diversify. It was very clear that the manager didn’t like me and wouldn’t have picked me. As I said, when I admitted I was struggling he screamed in my face that it was stupid of me to have accepted the job if I couldn’t do what he required. He yelled till I cried and then he took me to HR and said I was useless and he wouldn’t have me back in his team.

There’s not going to be any training in a job where you’re the only IT staff is there. I have no idea how you thought you’d be able to do that job.
I assumed the employer knew what the job entailed and what skills they needed their employee to have. They saw my CV and portfolio. They chose to hire me. So if the employer thinks I can do the job who am I to say no I can’t? It’s up to them to decide if I can do it or not. Turns out they had no idea what skills were needed for the work they wanted doing, which isn’t my fault.

But the PHP job didn’t have any training either and that’s puzzling because they had senior staff available. They didn’t assess my skills when I started in order to give me stuff that was within my abilities. They didn’t provide any training plan. Just gave me work and sacked me when I couldn’t do it. I got the feeling I wasn’t wanted in their young white male office.

But it's not for the employer to magic up work that's within your abilities - the vacancy existed because they had specific work that needed doing, and you were hired to do that work. They don't pay you for fun - they pay you in return for doing the work that they need. I really don't think this was a discrimination thing.

OP my 16 year old knows about object oriented programming using python and java, he learnt in his spare time during covid (I think he prefers procedural though as he learnt that first - not that I understand any/either of it). He did a couple courses and does it for GCSE (although at school apparently they don't do OOP until A-level). But from the sounds of it unfortunately an A-level student may be more qualified than you for these basic programming jobs. I don't really think this is the job for you by the sounds of it and i really don't think an MA will help. MAs tend to be for people to specialise in an area they already know about and want to specialise more in.

I would look at jobs that want a graduate but aren't too worried about the subject - something like HR for perhaps?

What were the job descriptions?
Web job was along the lines of - Junior developer required to maintain and update company website for an estate agent. Create new pages with text and images for properties that are new to market. Update existing pages. Remove sold properties. Skills required are HTML and JavaScript. Job will also involve some graphic design eg laying out advertisements for print and creating leaflets.

Fairly simple. Nothing too advanced. Certainly wouldn’t require a 3 year computing degree. Would have been fine if they hadn’t started asking for more than that.

You have a strange view of employment OP. You seem to think you can do a technical job on 100 hours of training, then think it's the employers fault when you don't know enough to do the job they hired you for.

But it's not for the employer to magic up work that's within your abilities - the vacancy existed because they had specific work that needed doing, and you were hired to do that work.
Firstly it would have been sensible for them to assess my skills before hiring me and check I could do what they wanted. It’s not my fault that they didn’t. If they’ve hired me I assume they’re confident that I can do what they want done. Secondly employers should expect to train someone they’ve hired in a junior role. Usually they give you stuff you can do while training you on the stuff you can’t do yet. They don’t just chuck stuff at you and sack you when you can’t do it.

This is what really annoys me about some of the chat on here. If you read some threads you’d think anyone could work in programming / coding / BI & analytics. You can’t it requires a certain mindset and aptitude. I don’t mean it requires an IT background or qualifications. I don’t have this but I do have over 15 years experience in business intelligence 8 years as a manager recruiting people.

What did they ask you to do in addition to that?

I think you might be right on the diversity thing there. The HR person hadn't got the skills to ask you technical questions. If you turned up with some of the right words on your cv they probably hired you and your line manager was cross that you were for all sorts of reasons. And sacking HR's appointment as useless means HR won't take it out of his hands again.

It is. It’s up to them to know what skills they need an employee to have and hire someone who matches that. If they’ve hired me then I assume they’ve looked at me and decided I know enough for what they want done.

They wanted me to develop an app that searched their competitors websites and sent them daily updates of new properties that had been posted for sale. I had no idea how to do that. I was hired to make basic pages that said “2 bed for sale on Market Street” with a few photos. They didn’t seem to understand it wasn’t the same skill set and they’d need to pay someone a lot more if they wanted those skills.

It sounds like you have been a little unlucky but agree you need a trainee/apprentice role in a bigger organisation. Also agree that you need to be a problem solver: people will tell you what outcome they want and you will need to be able to figure out how to get there, and you need to be that kind of person who enjoys that.
I think it might also be good to have a think about how to get better at interviewing the company - it should be a two way process to check they are right for you as well as you are right for them. You should ask them about what the job is, what its entails and what kind of things they are working on, what systems they use and what are the first tasks they would be expecting you to start on. Ask how they would support and develop you as a trainee/junior: would they send you on courses, expect you to get qualifications. is there protected training/study time? is training on the job? Write your questions down beforehand if you get nervous.
I have interviewed loads of people for tech roles and love it when people ask good questions and look like they really want to know how to fit in and grow in a role. I generally look for the right kind of people who are trainable to the job esp at entry level, so it should be possible to get a role if you link up what you already have learned, your other transferable skills ( eg problem solving, planning), your values ( to align with the org), personality traits ( like to get things finished to high standard, enjoy solving a problem, like being self directed and learning new things) to the role. Remember you need to be right for them, and they need to be right for you. Good luck!