Quite sure there's nothing I can do but

[ninnynonny]

I have just left a job I loved after 6 years. I literally walked out at the end of a day last week and sent my resignation.

In a nutshell, I have 21 years experience in this sector and have been passed over for promotion 4 times i the past two years, each time to someone younger, less qualified and much less experienced.

It's very clear that senior management don't like me but I have, at all times, acted professionally around them and my colleagues. To rub it in, this promotion was a new post, suggested by me to do, to help in one particular part of the organisation, but it was turned down last year. The person who got it, is a particular favourite who started wingeing about overtime being cut and how were they going to earn more money. Suddenly the job reappears, them and me were interviewed and they got it. They don't even fulfill half the criteria. Is there any way at all I can get some kind of recognition that this is unfair treatment.
The post before went to someone 30 years younger than me with 1 years experience.

I get I may be coming across s bitter and twisted, but I really am good at my job and know (as everyone does) that I could do both of these (and the previous two) easily.

I have left now and really don't want to return but I feel they have 'won' and I'm really cross.

I know there is no evidence for Constructive Dismissal but is age discrimination even slightly possible?

I agree with what Prh47bridge says. I wouldnt send an e--mail. You've resigned now. Promotion can be very unfair. If your face fits type of senario rather than experience or ability to do the job. And who will give their managers an easy life.

I take all your points and actually, weirdly I feel a bit better. I didn't bother with a grievance meeting or any discussion, no, because there was absolutely no point - I've witnessed others try this and the CEO is very clever by just being on the right side of employment law; I resigned immediately because I was extremely upset and felt totally useless.

It is what it is and I will move on - honestly though, I am a good, passionate, not entitled hard worker and it has really opened my eyes to how some places work - which may seem mad. I'm in my 50's and never experienced anything like this before - and have worked in the same sector for many years

Thank you

💐 nothing to add. Except I was in a similar position a few years back over redundancies. Basically I has to re apply for my own job and didn't get it. The person who was employed was younger and the reason given for their appointment was that they had more experience. I actually trained and nurtured that individual for 18 months!
Best to move on from there. They are not worth your time.

Just move on is my advice. I worked for an employer like this and if they behave like this already it will get a whole lot worse in any kind of official process like a grievance where they will argue black is white, make up lies and 'accidentally' make errors and lose documents. Do not assume that any kind of process will be fair, also remember HR are not on your side. They are there to protect the organisation.

Think if it as a lucky escape and look forward to new beginnings

Yes, this is what I would say. It hasn't happened to me but I've seen this sort of thing happen to lots of other people.

You've left. Draw a line under it and focus your energy on finding a new job. I can guarantee that you will find something more suited to your needs.

Turn the experience on it's head and think of it as the company not meeting your standards. You wouldn't treat someone like that so why should you accept that treatement yourself? That's what I do!

Well look you've learned one thing, a bitter pill
though it may be. And that is that "sucking up" as you put it, works.

Maybe spend a bit of time thinking about

1. Why this is so
2. What it was that this person did that made them a favourite
3. Why you consider sucking up to be a negative characteristic

Because telling everyone how great they are (public appreciation for colleague) is a valued skill
Making their bosses/senior managers life easier is a valued skill (which I wish people would be told at the beginning of their careers is basically EVERYONE's job description, regardless of technical details)
Self promotion and knowing what good looks like and behaving appropriately is a valuable skill

For people who define their value to an organisation on their technical/admin skills this all smacks of lightweight playing the game.

However. These people have consistently been promoted above you - and people like you managed out.

Now that's a shitty way to behave - or is it? It's also a very rational way for a business to behave.

And it's the way most businesses behave and recruitment processes work.

You may not like it but... consider that you might learn something from the person who got the job over you.

You dismiss them as less experienced - however they have shown they have more experience/skills than you in how to get what they want - the promotion

I've managed hundreds of people and also managed people out. I always made it very clear what good looks like - and some of those skills are what you consider sucking up.

I always need experienced technically able people - but they are not necessarily suited to management positions - which require non technical skills.

Some of the people who left/were not stopped from leaving where people who wanted promotions but didn't have the right non technical skills and became disillusioned/frustrated/bemused that they couldn't progress.

No matter how much you just crack on despite the let downs have you really been on top of your game/positive/not resentful? All totally natural but all not great for team dynamics.

I'm saying all this with kindness, because I'm sorry you feel so awful and sad. It's a horrible feeling.

But perhaps take the time to let it go and not take it too personally. If you want to prevent it happening again, perhaps as you conclude, stop shooting for senior management and all the stress and enjoy being good at the job you do.

Or spend a bit of time working out why you couldn't answer the questions as well as the other person. You have a skills gap that's nothing to do with years of experience in a role.

That hasn't really mad me feel terribly good about myself but harsh is sometimes necessary I guess!

What I will say is that I couldn't answer some of the questions as well as they were directly related to the other persons current post and not mine!

However, I'm not ever one to shy away from critical feedback so I do appreciate your comments

This is good advice.

The people who get on generally have a face that fits. They aren't necessarily the best technically but say and do the right things.

I'm probably a bit like you in that I tend to see beneath the veneer. I can specifically think of one person who was promoted before he was really ready. Technically he wasn't very good but he looked and sounded right. He was also visible and liked. There is no doubt in my mind that he will do very well. It's frustrating.

Use this experience as a learning opportunity to make a fresh start.

@ninnynonny it was a bit harsh now I read it back but was meant from a good place I promise.

Sometimes the reality (the way I see your situation as a director of a business - I may be wrong) of a situation can be uncomfortable.

It's not you it's them is nice to hear but you mentioned that this hasn't been a one off. In that job, that's not to say all jobs will be like that - but where there is a pattern is often worth taking a step back from the hurt and emotions and looking at what part you may have played in it.

I'm sure you are a good, diligent employee with great skills for the job you do.

You've left because that was not enough - you want the next job up and repeatedly didn't get it.

Now sometimes that is because you didn't get it the first time someone was promoted over you and you were put in a "not senior mgt material but perfectly good at what they do"
box. A worker not a leader. And there you would stay - they hope you'll carry on as you are and not let your disappointment/disgruntlement show. But that's it. And if you are clearly posted off and resign - well that's fine - they can train someone else/muddle on/ implode (probably the first two in reality).

That's unfair! I know - but it's how companies operate. It wouldn't have changed at that company though so you have done the right thing by leaving.

So in many ways it's not about you. And in some ways it is about you.

Understanding the machinations of the business you work in, is, if you want to look at it that way a technical skill like any other.

It's not playing dirty/cheating to spend time working out how the organisations makes decisions and adapting your skills/ways of working to match that. It's clever.

It is, I can almost 100% guarantee, what the people who've been promoted have done consciously or otherwise.

So what I'm saying is technical skills and experience, reliability and admin are perhaps only 50% of the requirements for promotion. Sometimes even less.

That's seems mad/unfair to people who are good at their jobs and can't understand how "lesser" people get ahead of them.

On your behalf it really fucks me off that management don't make this really, really explicit to individuals and the organisation at large and mange people's expectations.

What happens is they lose valuable employees through making success and fulfilment only about promotion to management and not about relishing and valuing people with great technical skills and giving them advancement around that -Rather than expecting to become political animals and understand how to play the game.

So for your next job I'd have a good think about either finding a company where there is a line of progression through technical/doing roles as well as management.

Or if it's management you want then you are going to have to learn about and understand what skills you need to learn.

The most important of which is to the business you work for - what does good look like?

Ask them - actually ask them and keep asking them - what type of people progress to management roles, what skills do they have to display. Though it might be disheartening to learn that competence in current role is absolutely not top of the list.

Only you can know if you want to reassess yourself in light of that and perhaps change the way you operate.

Good luck!

That is absolutely brilliant advice. It's so much clearer now. Thank you thank you.
I have never looked at it like that before and it makes me feel so much less useless.

You are certainly not useless!

Hopefully I've helped to rationalise what "my face doesn't fit" really means.

Doesn't mean you are useless or bad - probably means you are useful and good but they had a secret (they would say blindingly obvious) code for what progression meant there.

Go into your next role with open eyes and a realistic idea of what you offer and how that matches with success in that job.

I don't know what sector you are in but some enlightened companies have moved beyond progression = management.

E.g. see then number of sales directors I have. Who are directors of nothing other than their job title/salary. They would be dreadful managers but they can get all the perks of senior management without destroying teams around them.

Same for a lot of techies - it would be lunacy if their only route to promotion was management. I'm having cold sweats thinking about it.

When you are looking for new jobs - go on LinkedIn and look at people at the companies you want, with the job titles you want and read their profiles.

Have they been promoted internally? From what type of role into the one they do now. Have they moved around?

Have a look at the job titles above yours as well - what routes did those people take.

Have a look for a job like yours in terms of the technical spec and see if you can find people
In senior versions of that role that are not necessarily team leaders. Those may be the companies to approach.

Hi OP. I came here to say exactly what @Shannith and @Mumwantingtogetitright have said.

i manage a Team, and have just completed an internal promotion process. Promoting a younger bloke over an older woman. I thought for a second you might be the person I just rejected — except she hasn’t resigned. But I would be willing to bet she feels like you right now.

and the reasons were exactly as others have said. I’ll try to explain: If I was running a bakery, ‘Vera‘ would be the master pie maker. She makes the most technically perfect, delicious and exquisitely beautiful pies. Barry is a younger bloke. He can make adequate pies. Nowhere near as good as Vera’s, she trained him, and he still needs to take advice from vera for about one in five of the pies he makes.

they both applied for the bakery manager role. And vera was pretty pissed off when Barry got the job, after all her pies are amazing. So why did I pick Barry?

as a bakery manager, someone needs to know roughly how all products are made, not just pies. And tbh since they won’t be asked to make very many pies, their actual ability to do so is not that important. What Barry did. know about was health and safety, supply chain logistics, pie—related legislation AND he knew enough about bread making, cake making and sausage rolls to know where look or who to ask for further info. His self assuredness also meant he could do some customer facing stuff. Whereas Vera is more of a Backroom master craftsman..

because this additional knowledge was necessary, the interview covers all of these things. I can see how Vera would feel cross, after all it the questions had been about pies, Barry wouldn’t have got a look in. But the step up to manager isn’t about pies. There is a big problem in the team that (thanks to a previous manager) many members think success is all about perfect pies, and it is, But success is also about not getting prosecuted for health and safety breaches, or not going out of business because you didn’t buy eggs or failed to target what customers wanted.

im pissed off in a way that I couldn’t promote Vera, in my actual industry, cocky young men are very overrepresented compared to middle aged women. I had already been working with Vera to help her broaden her skills, but unfortunately for her this opportunity came up unexpectedly and she hadn’t quite got there — she’d done enough to get the interview, but not enough to beat Barry.

so my advice is, have a think about what you want? Are you really a Barry, or are you a Vera? There’s nothings wrong with chasing technical perfection and being being Vera, a round peg in a round hole. To me, Vera and Barry are both valued team members. But the role that was up for grabs just didn’t match to Vera’s skills. Yet.

I seriously cannot thank you enough for this. I've been a manager in the past (this is the charity sector btw) and have never thought of recruiting like this! It's actually really clever, if a bit horrible and has made me understand a lot! Thank you.
Funnily enough, I have an interview next week already and will definitely take your advice about looking even more carefully at the structure

Just wanted to say that walking out on a job was one of the best decisions I've ever made. My only regret now is not doing it sooner

You have had some great advice. The only extra I would advise is to get a reference asap. You will also need to think of a reason to explain to your new employer why you left your previous employer, one that makes you a good potential employee.

Just to add OP.. if it is any consolation, my knowledge on the topic comes from a simple experiment to you.

Last year, I didn’t get a strategic management job I really wanted. It went to a much younger, cockier person. It set me off looking at WHY I wasn’t as good a fit as I had assumed. In the end I actually got a job that’s a way better fit for me, I now know I need a role that is a combination of technical excellence and management bullshit.

The strategic role was too far along the management spectrum to suit me, and on reflection I’m glad that the interviewer saw what I could not. however painful that was at the time.

*experience

Great explanation @Hexen - hope Vera knows this - warts and all. As the very receptive @ninnynonny has shown (go you!) - the truth is better than the it's not fair and I don't understand why/how the bastard (not bastards really) think feeing.

Company decision making should never be a secret - if it is what are you hiding? Can you tell it's a big part of my job. "I wish you hadn't told me the truth" said no one ever.

Good luck @ninnynonny - I hope the interview goes well and you find something where you are both a round hole in a round peg with the option to be a bigger peg/slightly squarer one should that be what you want.

And to concur with @Hexen again - I'm the same but opposite. I would be absolutely shit at a pure technical role.

I am a female Barry if you will. I was perfectly good at the technical side of my role when I did it but it was playing against my strengths. And Vera would have wiped the floor with me.

I was deeply relieved when I made the move into strategic management. Because there I'm a Vera - it's my round peg.

It's also why I'm very invested in making sure that the Vera's in my business get all the recognition/status/salary and perks I do just because my skill set it what is traditionally seen as "senior".

I'm not alone and within the charity sector you will find your people and a company that values what you do.

Yes@Shannith , I did a fairly thorough debrief with Vera, and made it clear the outcome wasn’t a reflection of her overall worth, just a question of skills and aptitude for a specific role.

now I’m coaching her in what is needed across the business as a whole, so she can make the decision for herself as to upskill and chase a manager role, or if she’d prefer to remain as a valued craftsman, and perhaps take on coaching our trainee .

i will say that in ‘pies‘ in Vera’s case is actually implementing a highly complex legal and technical process. But ‘pie’ is quicker to type.

And I bloody wish it was pies some days. At least I’d have a nice pie to eat instead of paperwork and aggro.

Yes. The reference won't be a problem and I have thought out good reasons for leaving which are fine!

And I hope Vera manages to get the pastry on more cpmplex pies done!!

And yes @Shannith the other thing I am doing is a reevaluation of roles, so that the Vera’s of the business get renumerated in accordance with their importance to the process. From a management POV it can be just as damaging to the business to lose a technically brilliant Vera upwards when she doesn’t actually care about being a Manager, and she’s gone for it because that’s the only way to chase the money, rather than because she actually actively wants to move out of a technical role. I also want people to enjoying their jobs. Makes life so much easier all round if no one hates what they are doing.

@ninnynonny oh yes, her latticework is a joy to behold 😍 (metaphorically)

That's the other thing - It really wasn't about the money, it was a coupe of thousand extra, it was about genuinely caring about the organisation and wanting my ideas and thoughts to be properly heard