Employer says it will recover apprenticeship costs

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

Just wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction.

DH has been put on apprenticeship scheme at work which will end shortly. It’s funded through the apprenticeship levy and cost £15k. He was asked to sign an agreement at the outset which said if he left within a year of it ending he would have to pay back the £15k, decreasing if he stayed for one and then two years. However, the ESFA guidance seems clear employers cannot recover costs from apprentices who leave employment or who do not complete the course. He put this to his employer who said putting him through the apprenticeship cost them in terms of releasing him for his 20% apprenticeship time and it was entitled to recover those costs. If it’s relevant the job pays c£20k and the apprenticeship takes 12-18 months.

DH is job hunting as wanting to take advantage of the current market. The job he is in was never intended to be a long term prospect but was a response to circumstances we found ourselves in during covid. But he’s worried that if he leaves he can be pursued for the 15k which we are not in a position to pay back.

Does anyone know if his employer is correct re: recouping costs or if it is worth him pushing back? Would the next step be to ask for a copy of his t&cs/contract which details this repayment conditions/arrangement?

He needs to contact the Education and Skills Funding Agency

If he knew this job was a short term prospect why did he sign an agreement saying he'd work 12-18 months to do a qual then then a further 12 months after that?

It's fairly standard practice for employers to have agreements in place for qualifications to be paid back if you leave shortly after qualifying, and the employer is correct that it has cost them a lot of money to support this as he was paid a 5 day week but effectively only worked 4 days as the 5th was study time.

www.acas.org.uk/final-pay-when-someone-leaves-a-job/deductions-for-training-courses

Deductions for training courses
Employers can only deduct money for training courses if it was agreed in the contract or in writing beforehand.
For example, an employer could ask someone to agree in writing before a training course to pay back costs if they leave within 6 months.
When a deduction can take wages below the National Minimum Wage
A deduction for training courses can only take someone's pay below the National Minimum Wage if they agreed to pay back costs and either:
• chose to leave
• were dismissed because of their conduct
If someone is made redundant and a deduction for training courses would take their pay below the National Minimum Wage, employers should speak to an Acas adviserr_ to discuss their options and make sure they do not break the law.

If he has signed a clearly worded agreement then it’s likely he would be liable. Why doesn’t he just stay for a year if it’ll cost £15k to leave before then?

I think they can recover the money as it was agreed beforehand. He should stay really and complete the apprenticeship

If he knew this job was a short term prospect why did he sign an agreement saying he'd work 12-18 months to do a qual then then a further 12 months after that?

I don’t understand this either. He signed up to the t&cs when he agreed to the apprenticeship. Very cf to take a job he knew was short term for him, sign up to an expensive training scheme with these t&cs and now try and get out of it so soon.

Personally, I would sit tight. Even if he were to go out there and get a better position, is it one that would pay £35k to offset the £15k he'd have to pay back? Think about it that way.

Is it HGV work by any chance? DH is a driver. For all some employers are promising ridiculous wages right now, lots aren't actually delivering those wages and the ones that do are making sure they get their monies worth with hours and conditions. He has been tempted to jump ship a few times, but has sat tight for the security and flexibility we have with his current job and we're both glad he has TBH.

It depends how determined the employer is to get the money back. A % of the costs will probably be taken out of his last pay (as per a pp said), and the rest, if they are inclined, might be pursued via the courts. I think it's unlikely as it'll be more hassle than it's worth for them, but you never know.

Also be careful, if it's a close knit industry and word gets round about your dh it might impact his career

What's the industry/job?

What's the actual going rate for the job? Has he completed the scheme?

I'd hold on a minute here OP, I'm pretty sure they aren't entitled to claim back costs in relation to apprenticeships. I'll try and do some digging.

They cannot claim the levy funds back but can claim any expenses such as back fill for the 20% off the job and anything claimed back during the time by the apprentice such as travel.. the levy cannot be claimed back for definite. We've just had to change our training contracts to state this as it's different to paid courses.

If he was under 18, I don't think he could sign a legally binding contract like that.

I'd contact ESFA and ask them to advise. The rules for apprentices are different to regular training courses. He'll need to include his start date as their guidance changes regularly.

esfahelp.education.gov.uk/hc/en-gb

It's really shitty of you and him to go into an agreement you have no intention of committing to. Keep in mind even if he wiggles out of the contract and I hope you can't, the employer could tell future employers in references what he did.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

If he was under 18, I don't think he could sign a legally binding contract like that.

I doubt her dh will be under 18!

So he benefited from the apprenticeship when it suited him. But then doesn't want to comply with the terms he signed up to. It sounds to me like he's being cheeky.

Right, if it's funded through the levy then they can't reclaim the costs:

www.gov.uk/guidance/apprenticeship-funding-rules

You need the rules in place when you started your apprenticeship. I've assumed that would be the 20-21 rules.

In 20-21 at E69.3 (it moves depending on the rule year I think) it says:

Not be asked to contribute financially to the cost of training, on-programme or end-point assessment. This includes where the individual
has completed the programme successfully or left the programme early.
Costs include any co-investment or additional training and assessment costs, above the funding band, that you have paid directly to the main provider where this is part of the agreed apprenticeship.

It also says that employers will be pursued if they break funding rules:

We may take action to recover all or part of the government funding from you if we are satisfied that there has been a breach of the funding rules. This includes where claims are made for funding through your apprenticeship service account, government co-investment or additional payments (including incentive payments for hiring a new apprentice) to which you are not entitled.

That's at E6. You can search for the equivalent paragraphs in a different year's rules of necessary (by a word in the paragraph not the number).

If it's been funded through the levy then it's counted as government funding so the above applies.

The only possibility would be if he's had other training that he agreed that for that wasn't part of the apprenticeship in which case you can have proportional recovery which drops over time, usually equivalent to the length of the course - I think this is quite unlikely though.

I agree it's taking the piss somewhat

He signed a contract stating those were the terms

This is exactly why they want to recover costs! Very cheeky to move on before finishing, someone else who genuinely wanted that career could have taken that job

@GingerAndTheBiscuits
Read @Gladioli23 post

Just making sure useful information doesn't get lost in all the opinions

I would ask his training provider to make enquiries, I work for one but in Scotland and we advise apprentices on things like this all the time.

Thanks all, I’ll go back and read in full but for context DH was laid off at the start of the pandemic, took a job outside his normal industry where he was assaulted by a client and had a bit of a breakdown. When I say it wasn’t a long term prospect I mean he never really intended to stay for years in the role (as it has turned out it hasn’t been great either - he didn’t get his apprenticeship time for months and has made most of it up in his spare time) but he needed something steady for a while to settle himself and recover. He has been there for 18 months, and hasn’t any immediate plans to leave, but a couple of roles have caught his eye (and being frank, we need the money, our household income is 15k less than it was in March 2020) so we both wanted to be clear where he stood.

I wouldn't give any headspace to all the people getting in a tizz over how long someone is employed for.

The government introduced an additional tax in the form of the apprenticeship levy, it's just that businesses can claim some of it back if they meet certain criteria - which includes not recovering the costs of training from employees. This is a very similar mechanism to plenty of other business tax decisions, like extra deductions around R and D.

The fact that the company has chosen to write a contract that sounds very unlikely to be in line with the levy rules is their problem, not yours.

I find it really difficult to understand why so many people are so keen for people to remain beholden to employers even when they aren't obliged to be. In my experience employers who treat their employees well and have a genuine understanding of give and take end up with employees who stay beyond their training contracts, or even when things are hard. And those that don't, don't. Some employees will take the piss but most won't. Leaving after a government funded training course is completed isn't taking the piss in my book.

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

Thanks all, I’ll go back and read in full but for context DH was laid off at the start of the pandemic, took a job outside his normal industry where he was assaulted by a client and had a bit of a breakdown. When I say it wasn’t a long term prospect I mean he never really intended to stay for years in the role (as it has turned out it hasn’t been great either - he didn’t get his apprenticeship time for months and has made most of it up in his spare time) but he needed something steady for a while to settle himself and recover. He has been there for 18 months, and hasn’t any immediate plans to leave, but a couple of roles have caught his eye (and being frank, we need the money, our household income is 15k less than it was in March 2020) so we both wanted to be clear where he stood.

Honestly if he hasn't been allowed his study time tell him to raise it formally (if he hasn't already complained in writing) and he might have a leg to stand on saying they didn't uphold their end of the contract which meant he had to be an apprentice longer than necessary, impacting his own progression opportunities and delaying them.

To clarify a couple of other points

• the course ends imminently.
• my objection isn’t to the principle of paying back training costs, it’s based on the fact the guidance says they cannot do so. So the contract appeared to me (IANAL) to be void on that basis. But I wasn’t sure which costs the guidance referred to. I only happened to come across the wording of the guidance in connection to something I was doing, not him, we haven’t gone looking for loopholes!
• he earns 20k so even recouping the 20% he was supposed to be released for wouldn’t add up to £15k? So we could ask them to clarify the amount they would claim back and how this has been calculated?
• my employer offers everyone apprenticeships funded by the levy, even when only tangentially connected to our work, it doesn’t say anything about recovery of costs or time if the apprenticeship isn’t completed, so I don’t know how common his employer’s approach is to apprenticeships specifically, not training more generally.

What we really want is clarity from his employer about what they are claiming back; what we have had in return was word salad. Once we know and have established that it can do so, we can plan whether it is worthwhile actively pursuing another job, or sticking it out.