To the non-vaxxers who work for the NHS- do we have a leg to stand on?

[LMonkey]

So it's looking like vaccines will become mandatory for all NHS workers from April next year...where on earth can we go fro here?
I really dont want to get in to a vaccine debate. I have strong feelings as to why I don't want the vaccine. I'm a med sec and don't see any patients any way, or go anywhere near them. But regardless of this I strongly feel NOBODY should be forced to have any vaccine. Do we have a leg to stand on? I mean it's not lawful to force an employee to have a vaccine but if the government make it compulsory for nhs staff is there any way round it do you think? This really is causing me enormous amounts of stress. I really don't know what to do (please don't anyone say "get the vaccine"). I'd love to hear from others in the same boat or from a legal standpoint.

@Mybalconyiscracking

Just have the vaccine, what makes you so bloody precious?

Wow! What a shitty unnecessary comment when you know nothing of the OPs reasons.

Now if that comment was directed to me, I'd have to divulge my medical history to make judgemental people like you understand the vaccine is greater risk to me than not having it. But yes..... another pushy just have the dam vaccine comment; very useful NOT!

Us carers have to find another job if we refuse the vaccine. So why should NHS get away with it.

I think personally for me the answers to somewhat stupid seeming questions like mine would be a good publicity opportunity. Because there will be lots of people wondering this, like me, and want their mind putting at ease but darent ask for fear of being labelled a mindless idiot or selfish or an anti vaxxer.

If someone could go on tele instead of Boris and say, look, this is how we know that it won't injure your children in 20 years. This is how it's been tested, in comparison to normal testing process. I do think knowledge is power. And it needs to be accessible. For instance above numbers can be skewered to mean anything. We all need an idiots guide to why you should get this and why it's very unlikely to kill you.

Rather than get this or get sacked.

“Winter2019
And when people ask, why not get the bloody vaccine? Errrr.. cause it's not been tested enough,they've come up with it fairly quickly and some of us are not sheep”

People still believe this?

Following a different shepherd doesn’t make you any less of a sheep

I love this @Cornettoninja

I can't even read this thread anymore. Infuriates me

Yes, there is still such a lot of misinformation around.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread @Conflictedboobs. Yours is the voice of common sense and reason.

@Lakes74

Completely agree with OP and feel sorry for OP and others in this position.

People need to look at page 20 of this link on the government website showing the most recent data of positive cases per 100,000 vaccinated and unvaccinated people. It shows, in many age groups, you’re actually a lot more likely to catch Covid if vaccinated. This shows that vaccine passports and practically mandating these vaccines is completely wrong.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1031157/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-44.pdf

People need to look at the actual data on transmission instead of believing all the media scaremongering which is creating the division demonstrated on this thread. Also, consider all the side effects of the vaccines reported on the Government’s Yellow Card website before making people feel guilty about not having them. That’s only the short term reported side effects, we don’t know what any long term effects may be so comparing with vaccines which have been around for years and we have more safety data for is completely unreasonable.

I personally can’t see them being made mandatory for health staff (including carers) as we already have such a shortage as it is, I think the government are just using scare tactics to try get as many people as possible to have them.

BTW, I’m not anti-vaxx, I’m just going by what data we have at the moment.

👍👍👍👍👍

It’s opposed by all the Royal Colleges I believe because the principal of free consent and individual right to refuse treatment is intrinsic to medical practice. On a practical note it did nothing to increase vaccination in care homes, it has just caused problems with staffing them. I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that it will happen. I’d personally rather take my chances being treated by an unvaccinated person than be treated by nobody at all. Vaccination doesn’t reduce transmission anyway and something like 95% of staff are vaccinated

@RampantIvy

It shows, in many age groups, you’re actually a lot more likely to catch Covid if vaccinated.

Isn't that because most adults have been vaccinated?
Doesn't the data show that it is still the unvaccinated that take up most of the ICU beds?

No, as I said and if you look at the table, the rates are per 100,000 vaccinated and 100,000 unvaccinated so completely comparable.

Not most of the ICU beds, I agree it looks like the vaccines are effective for preventing serious illness and death, but this isn’t the topic of the OP’s post, the topic is around transmission itself.

Everyone needs to weigh up their own risks and make an informed decision to do what they feel right for their health, just as other people do. What about people who eat too much, drink too much, smoke, don’t exercise - all risking their health, but that’s their choice and they aren’t being constantly made to feel guilty like unvaccinated people are at the moment.

Also, supposing the vaccines are only effective for around 6 months as they currently think they may be, I really can’t see that the whole population will be ‘boosted’ twice a year in the long term, I think it will just be those in ‘at risk’ groups.

@Bluntness100

I think you’ve misunderstood op? You seem a little confused. No one is forcing you to get a vaccine, yout choice remains, if you don’t want to get one done. But best you find another job.

So .... My nurse who was vulnerable and couldn't be vaccinated, could not see me 'who is vulnerable and can't be vaccinated', so they had to change nurses to a vaccinated one for me. This was not to protect me but to protect the nurse.

How is this going to play out on a mass scale?

To be honest, I don't care if my nurse is jabbed or not. It's not for me to question their reasons. It is however MY responsibility to live as safely as I can, without expecting other to give up their autonomy to protect me. I find that ridiculous. I take all my own precautions and I test daily.

I wonder how many 'vulnerable' Doctors, Nurses, Fire Fighters, Policemen etc you're expecting to find another job or just take that risk???

Today 17:17 Coyoacan

Apparently us vaccinated are just as contagious as the unvaccinated, though hopefully not as liable to get really sick, so how does my being vaccinated help society?“

By not using medical resources.

@QuestionEverythingOrBeASheep where did that nurse work? Because nurses wouldn't be asking patients if they are vaccinated unless there was a particular reason. Patients don't have to disclose that neither do staff at this point as my boss asked me today!

I have no advice OP but hopefully someone does. Don't subscribe to the whole 'there's the door' approach and think that the NHS and social care sector is going to lose a lot of staff and a lot of care is going to go downhill for many due to further stretching of services

Don't you need to have a whole load of vaccines to work in the NHS as medical staff?

When I first came to this country as an international student, I needed to have MMR plus carry a copy of my chest scan. No jab no visa (and no uni). That wasn't forcing, i had a choice not to attend university in the uk, just like you have a choice to find a new job.

As a nurse, Hep B vaccines have always been mandatory at our trust, so I don’t consider this to be any different. The anti science stance of some of my NHS colleagues gets me down.

@Lakes74 Sigh. No @RampantIvy is completely correct. It is you who don’t understand the data. Have you read this page? It’s depressing that people are applauding your post. Apparently they don’t understand the data either.

@pointythings

Ah, Lakes74 how did I know you would be along with your twisted interpretation of the data? The table you refer to is unadjusted data (this is stated very clearly) and also references pages 13-15 of the document (which I imagine you would prefer people not to read because it offers guidance on interpretation.

I hope the people on this thread actually read in accordance with what is stated in the document and ignore your distortion of it. You are using it as antivaxx propaganda, which is highly irresponsible.

I’m not using it as anti-vaxx propaganda whatsoever, as I stated I’m not even anti-vaxx, I’m just trying to offer support to the OP and others in the same position after many on here have jumped on her basically telling her how selfish she is, I assume they all must be totally healthy, not overweight, not smoke, not drink etc to make sure they don’t put any unnecessary strain on the NHS?!

I referred people to page 20 of the document which also refers people to read page 13-15 above the table so if I preferred people not to read it I wouldn’t have provided the link!!

Like I said, I hope people do read and make their own judgements.

I did not know that driving licenses could give you blood clots or myocarditis 🤣🤣🤣 yeah quite the same.

No vaccines are currently required by law in this country. Covid vacc in care homes will be the first one. But only for staff, residents can opt out as can their visitors

[quote Ginandplatonic]**@Lakes74* Sigh. No @RampantIvy* is completely correct. It is you who don’t understand the data. Have you read this page? It’s depressing that people are applauding your post. Apparently they don’t understand the data either.[/quote]
Yes I have read the full document thank you. The ‘interpretation of the data’ section with the 4 bullet points includes 2 ‘mays’. The difference is still huge especially for the middle aged groups.

@IBelieveInAThingCalledScience

"They'll lose 5 good nurses".

Nope. They're not good nurses if they refuse to be vaccinated and are happy to endanger patients in their care.

This is very misinformed. How would she be endangering patients (if she was even public facing)?

If your a medical secretary you should have no problem finding an admin job that's not in the NHS and won't require you to have a vaccine. Or you could just get the vaccine?

It’s not a personal choice for your own health. Without the vaccines hundreds of million people will die, health systems around the world would collapse. We need vaccines and we need people to take them. Anti-vaxxers are precious with illusions of grandeur, why do you think your cleverer than everyone else, even the smartest and most educated minds in the world? Why are you more important than everyone else? Hiding behind herd immunity and calling us sheep. I’m a sheep? You’re a coward.

The OP is, I am sure, well aware that most people feel she should have the vaccine but she has asked for responses that don't urge her to do so.

I have not been vaccinated but I would never offer my opinions as to whether someone else should get vaccinated. It is their body and their choice.

Having a job is a necessity for most people and it is a form of coercion to tell some employees that if they don't comply they can't do the job that they have been trained to do. For some, it may leave virtually no choice.

The vast majority of people have had at least one vaccine and some have had the whole course. We were originally told that the vaccine would eradicate Covid. Now were are being told that people who have been vaccinated can still get Covid (and I have seen many examples of that) but that they will get a milder version. There are also new strains of Covid being found, uncertainty as to whether the current vaccines are as effective on these new strains, and suggestions made that "boosters" may continue to be required at intervals. It is understandable that some people are concerned about this.

If a person is very worried about contracting Covid, they will have all the vaccinations and any suggested boosters, and may possibly decide to continue to wear a mask in shops, cinemas, etc, and to self distance. Surely that should be sufficient to protect them?

fournonblondes

I did not know that driving licenses could give you blood clots or myocarditis 🤣🤣🤣 yeah quite the same.

You are at far greater risk of developing myocarditis and blood clots if you contract Covid 19 or its variants.

@SarahBop

It is pointless.

Vaccinated people are still transmitting the virus, so it makes no sense to assume the unvaccinated staff are the issue.

Would be more sensible if they could check antibodies amongst the unvaccinated, that might give them a clearer picture.

Personally I think it's disgusting. Not a coincidence that the government make profit from something they are pushing so hard, is it...

Fight, fight and fight. There are some good letter templates that explain you are not refusing the vaccine, just delaying your decision and that you want the trust to be held liable for any potential damage or injury you receive - they won't sign, because they can't guarantee you won't be vaccine injured or killed.

Please fight, for our kids and grandkids sake....This is means to an end

I absolutely agree with all of this.

OP I'm not sure what to say. If the vaccine reduced transmission I'd be saying you need to get the jab. But I've just not yet seen any evidence to support a vaccine mandate on the small % of unvaccinated NHS staff when transmission has been noted to be pretty similar. Does anyone have any links to reliable evidence otherwise?

@IBelieveInAThingCalledScience

"They'll lose 5 good nurses".

Nope. They're not good nurses if they refuse to be vaccinated and are happy to endanger patients in their care.

yep. good riddance. if nurses can't understand the scientific evidence for something like vaccination, they shouldn't be working as nurses. Vaccination is already mandatory for healthcare staff for things like TB, MMR etc so it's absolutely ridiculous refusing this one