Wise Ruby Wax - working and stay at home parents

[Judy1234]

In today's Telegraph....

"Dear Ruby

I stopped working when I had my third child. It didn't make sense to continue with my job when I had a stressed-out husband requiring my support and children who needed me at home. It was an agonising decision, but my salary only just covered the cost of childcare.

And we didn't need the money - my husband earns six times more than I did. More importantly, I felt really guilty going off to the office every day and leaving my kids behind.

My problem is this: since I stopped working I feel like a non-person. Oddly, it's other women who give me this feeling. Women who have somehow managed to keep their careers afloat through babies, breastfeeding, nappy rash and all the mayhem of motherhood, treat me with barely disguised contempt. It's almost as if, by staying at home, I've lost the right to have an opinion, or say anything interesting. It's deeply upsetting.

Life is hard enough as it is, so why can't women be allies at least? Why can't we respect each other's choices? Amanda M, Edinburgh

Dear Amanda

I have heard that cry from some of my "non-person" friends when they decided to give it all up for breastfeeding duty. The reason I would also probably treat you with disdain if I met you is that I am secretly (well, not so secretly any more) jealous.

You are lucky enough to have a husband who makes six times the amount you made and that really irks me, as I'm sure it would other females.

But in your position, I would have worked anyway, as all my self-esteem is stored up in my job. I could never have applied the word "housewife" to myself. I'd rather have put a sabre through my head.

Although I admire your sacrifice to the little one, on the whole, I find women who don't work to be just a teensy bit boring with their obsession with schools and stools. Not all, just most.

Perhaps other working mothers are reminded how guilty they feel about abandoning the home. Perhaps we take it out on you. Enjoy your home life."

Anna8888 I'm not 'touchy' about shrinks. I don't think I said that anywhere in my post! I said I thought that to ask someone a question like that on a forum like this is really quite unhelpful and probably designed to be a 'dig' in some way. Psychotherapy is a personal matter and I just don't see the relevance of your comment.

Anna8888 methinks projection why are you so interested in shrinks?

Would it be ok to ask Xenia whether she has ever been, or is currently,sectioned under the Mental Health Act 1983? a member of the WI?

unkind xenia states a view contrary to many posters, - so what that is her right. she is entitled to do so. many other posters do, and are not subjected to their psych history being source of speculation.

Xenia, this is interesting. You say that life is about being good - I'm an atheist, but I don't see much wrong in that as a stance to take, at least rather than the relentless pursuit of self gratification. There is probably a good happy medium. But - this sits oddly with your statements elsewhere that you want your children to go to private school, earn high salaries etc so that they can (say) have horses, big houses, ski-ing holidays. Those things are all about making yourself happy.

I'm actually not trying to pick a fight, and I know that we're all prone to inconsistency, and deviation from principle at various times, but would am curious how you square this.

No, they aer arguably things about making a child able to reach their full potential so they can make best use of the talents they were born with - I think they can do more good running the country than cleaning floors although both roles are of intrinsic worth. Anyway I thought pigs were happy and educated philosphers sad. Education can make people unhappy not happy.

Will go and look at psycho bits now.

If anyone thinks they are the best they can be - I find that an extraordinary statement. I am sure virtually all of us could be better.

On the question of psychiatrists my brother and father are psychiatrists or my father was until he retired and my sister is a psychologists but no I haven't ever seen one personally. To think life isn't for the pursuit of happiness is not some deranged thought of mine that requires therapy. It's how possibly most people on the planet particularly in less materialistic countries than ours live their lives, most buddhists and muslisms for a start never mind a good few Christians and probably atheists. I never liked that US thing -life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We should never have lost the war of independence.

Yes, running the country and talents etc fits in with your logic, but you have many times said that it's better to have money so that you can have ski-ing holidays, etc. Seriously, where does that fit? If it's just "hands up, yes, I can be a hypocrite too", then fine, but say so, otherwise your arguments are really quite mixed.

Life is as much about enduring as enjoying I find.
Be the best? At what? How? What are you striving for when you say you want to be the best?

Surely we all do the best we are capable of at that time.
Christ to be defined by some elevated level of best I might never achieve... surely the term "best" makes it unattainable be its very definition.

I celebrate things which to someone in another life might think trivial, boring and worthless.

But I don't - surely that's the true difference - individuals wants and needs.

For women that have the choice, there is no need to justify their choices about working vs staying at home. Because I wanted to is enough.
it is women who have no choices that are the true losers in this debate.

The best we can be as people and that might be washing the feet of the poor or being kind to our family but it should be to use all our talents to the full surely.

As for money I certainly wouldn't put skiing holidays at the top of the list to earn money. It gives you stability and comfort, ability to think, fulfil your potential, educate your children well, ensure you are not reliant on the vagaries of male earnings and yes it might enable you to buy a skiing holiday. I'm not saying life should be one long dreary time but to say you are here just to pursue personal happiness seems wrong to me. Many people in their work help others too.

Am inclined to agree with Xenia that our goal in life should be fulfilling our potential and living a good life and constantly striving to be better. I find Anna8888's assertion that happiness is the only goal that morally makes sense a little strange and limiting.

ScottishMummy - because shrinks help people examine their prejudices and contradictions and Xenia is full of them .

The pursuit of happiness is in no way contradictory to the pursuit of fulfilling our potential... it is by using our talents that we attain happiness.

I think a lot of people in the Western world are still hugely influenced by the teachings of the Christianity of a bygone age which taught that your suffering on earth will take you to heaven.

Fortunately, not many people are naïve enough to believe in heaven these days. So the only chance at happiness is now, in life. Personally, I have never met a discontented person who did much good - I don't believe unhappy people serve others well.

I would be surprised if the limit to the universes were all on this planet, but we'll all see, no doubt, in due course.

Most psychiatrists treat those with psychiatric conditions like depression, some addictions, OCD etc. I think you need a problem first before you can see one and in the UK usually be referral from your GP. It's nothing to be ashamed of and I wish people felt as happy to tell others they have depression at work as much as they can say I have a bad back but we aren't quite there yet.

Xenia - just wanted to say that you have said some interesting things & that I agree with you in many ways I like your calm reasoning. Even though I am a SAHM!

xenia - yes psychiatry is still stigmatised, in a way that physical health is not.i like that you are pretty unflappable and don't retort to comments made about you.i look forward to your posts, lol sometimes in a "what is she on about way" but keep 'em coming

'Fortunately, not many people are naïve enough to believe in heaven these days'

'shrinks help people examine their prejudices'

need i say more......!!

Well, yes, inthegutter, you need to say a lot more because you have said nothing at all.

What was your point?

i don't believe in heaven

Sorry, perhaps I need to clarify further. The first point shows prejudice-you are making a negative value judgement about people with a particular belief system:
'Fortunately, not many people are naïve enough to believe in heaven these days'

Your second point seems a little ironic in view of the fact that you seem to think other people would benefit from seeing a shrink:
'shrinks help people examine their prejudices'

P.S scottishmummy - I'm not sure that I believe in heaven either, but I certainly wouldn't be judgemental about anyone who does have a belief in it, or indeed in any other kind of after life.

Indeedy!i made statement of fact about me, not a judgment about anyone else tho

I know scottishmummy - hope you didn't think i was digging at you, cos i wasn't at all! It was the likes of Anna with her judgemental comments and then her comments about Xenia being 'full of prejudices' that got my goat!!! We're all entitled to our own beliefs, and hopefully most of us are able to respect the beliefs of others.

hehe better pray im not wrong bout this heaven thingy

I must admit I always make a beeline for any post with the word "Xenia" in it. I don't agree with a lot of what she says but I do respect her honest, straightforward style of debating and all the controversy that goes with it. It cheers me up when I'm putting yet another load on...

Inthegutter - crikey, what do you teach and how on earth are your pupils supposed to express their opinions without getting lambasted for value judgements and prejudice?

It can't be very interesting.