SUBJECT: MNHQ here: How has maths helped your career?

[AnnaCMumsnet]

Women are underrepresented in science, technology, engineering and maths careers. The ratio of men vs women working in STEM has stalled at 74:26

There are lots of possible explanations for this, but the stats seem to show that disparities start fairly early. Girls are substantially less likely to take scientific, numerical and technical subjects at A Level, and an study from a few years ago showed that across OECD countries, girls are more likely than boys to express a lack of self-confidence when tackling maths and science problems - even though girls often outperform boys at GCSE level in these subjects.

We’ve been talking to Maths4Girls, who are trying to redress the balance. They say:

“We seek to dispel gender stereotypes and inspire more girls to pursue maths and the opportunities it can bring. We do this by introducing female role models to young girls aged 11 - 14 so they can share their inspirational career journey, and give insight into their amazing career.”

Some of the workshops Maths4Girls have run (for free) include using maths to solve crimes, to persuade people, and to save the world (by tackling the really big global challenges such as climate change).

We know from thousands of conversations on Mumsnet over the years that we have many brilliant women here who excel in maths and maths-related fields, so to support Maths4Girls in their mission we thought we’d try to find a few role models of our own.

How has maths helped your career? How do you use maths, from day to day, in your job - and what sort of difference does your job make in the world? Do you have any thoughts about what might have helped you when you were studying or breaking into your chosen field - or do you have any tips for the upcoming generations of girls and young women thinking about building a career in STEM?

(Feel free to namechange if your story is too identifying!)

Thanks
MNHQ

I’m an agricultural land surveyor. Maths helps me in small ways every day whether it’s calculating rents, carrying out valuations, drawing scale plans or calculating ratios for fertilisers.

I did biology, chemistry and maths at A level plus physics to AS. Then a chemistry integrated masters and then PhD.
I have worked for "big pharma" and now for a biotech/baby pharma company

The underlying theory of everything I do has a basis in maths/physics/physical chemistry. My undergraduate and postgraduate degrees both involved the application of degree level maths.

For me science and maths were an obvious path. I have a much more natural ability with numbers compared to words. Across my GCSEs my grades across all subjects were similar but science and maths didn't feel like as much of a chore compared with the English/humanity subjects. When I was very little I wanted to work in a supermarket so that I could get to add up every day!

I have found my way into a very niche area which I love. My day job involves problem solving, pattern recognition and creativity in the context of pharmaceutical development. The only bit that is a surprise in that is the creativity! I was always pulled up on my lack of imagination as a child and its not something that gets spoken about much in the STEM field but without creativity, not always following the rules and taking a punt on a slightly outthere idea so many discoveries would not have been discovered!

I have found my way into a very niche area which I love. My day job involves problem solving, pattern recognition and creativity in the context of pharmaceutical development. The only bit that is a surprise in that is the creativity! I was always pulled up on my lack of imagination as a child and its not something that gets spoken about much in the STEM field but without creativity, not always following the rules and taking a punt on a slightly outthere idea so many discoveries would not have been discovered!

This resonates! It really annoys me that all too often people will talk as though 'arts' subjects are creative and STEM ones aren't. Whereas much science and technology involves enormous creativity. I think this false dichotomy and misapprehension may be part of what turns some girls off STEM,

I think this false dichotomy and misapprehension may be part of what turns some girls off STEM,

Yes. You don't get much scientific discovery and invention without creativity and an interest in looking at things in different ways.

Just a word of warning to those whose DCs are considering a career in something mathsy - please, please, please make sure that they have something more than their degree on their CV.

Gone are the days when a booksmart maths whiz could waltz into a job with just their degree, now we look for well rounded people with strong social and communication skills, work experience, and preferably society involvement. In fact the vast majority of accountants and actuaries we've hired for grad roles over the last ~10 years have been well on the extroverted side, especially now that these roles have become even more focused on client-facing tasks. The dated stereotype of the shy nerdy accountant who sits on their own crunching figures all day is no more!

Maths to solve crimes? Definitely! My specialist field is financial crime and if I’m looking at a potential issue I need to be able to see if the numbers make sense, and then I need to be able to explain succinctly why they do (or don’t). I also run a budget, present quantitative monitoring data and have to make business cases for internal funding. All of which needs maths for sense checking, because if I get it wrong someone senior will tell me pretty quickly.

My route to where I am now involved a blend of science and arts A-levels (including physics), a law degree, post-graduate qualification as a lawyer and some industry specific training in accounting. The analytical skills from the science A-levels I did have been hugely helpful in my career. I think people, not just girls, get told they can’t mix arts and sciences after GCSE and still pursue a non-scientific career, and it’s just not true. I did A-levels I enjoyed and that made a difference to my success because I wasn’t shoe-horned into a specific pattern.

Thank you @NannyAndJohn, that is really useful to know. My mathsy DD is a massive extrovert, so she’ll be delighted to know! She plays a couple of sports and is working her way through Cubs/Scouts and music grades.

I have 2 masters in engineering. parents need to drive this rather than initiatives. Be ambitious for your children. Think doctor rather than nurse etc. My parents let me think I could do anything I wanted. My children think nothing of telling people their mother is an engineer. Where I work about 1 in 8 are women and it hasn't changed in 20+ years..

nannyandjohn is right. Competition is fierce. Always encourage children to get work experience in a relevant organisation.

I think this false dichotomy and misapprehension may be part of what turns some girls off STEM

Completely agree.
There is little creativity in the way maths is taught before A Level, which contributes to the sense of a dichotomy.

My younger dd wanted to take maths further at yr 8, she viewed it as a serious worthwhile subject. She has been completely turned off it by the gcse course. (Probably not helped by gaps in teaching due to the pandemic)

I have a PhD in physics and work in a medical physics dept which has science, advanced tech, engineering and maths! I couldn't do my job without maths. I loved it at school, but then discovered astronomy and physics and took that path at uni, but all of physics is underpinned by maths. Medical physics is also a very female-friendly science career - there's always a need for people, it's NHS so you get the benefits of good mat leave, good pension and good equality.

I am also a STEM ambassador and used to go into schools to talk about careers in STEM before covid, and hope to again once it's all a bit more normal.

DS is good at maths and likes it, especially problem-solving. I am delighted.

@BikeRunSki

Thank you *@NannyAndJohn*, that is really useful to know. My mathsy DD is a massive extrovert, so she’ll be delighted to know! She plays a couple of sports and is working her way through Cubs/Scouts and music grades.

That is great. Most of our younger hires are sporty, having been part of sports societies at university and some have even played for regional (and occasionally national!) teams. And there is a real gym culture around the profession as a whole, regardless of age and seniority.

I am personally drawn to those who mention sport involvement in their CV because it shows a solid experience of teamwork, arguably the number one skill required of anyone who wants to go into anything quantitative.

@MrPickles73

nannyandjohn is right. Competition is fierce. Always encourage children to get work experience in a relevant organisation.

Indeed it is. In normal times we were seeing on average around 1000 applicants for every grad role, now that we're living in a Covid World for the foreseeable this has risen even higher and with the permanent addition of flexible working (no longer requiring grads to live in grotty London flatshares!) we're expecting applications to go through the roof.

Small local accounting firms are generally happy to take on sixth formers and first year undergrads for work experience, and from that a student would have a decent shot at getting the coveted summer internship (applications for these have also skyrocketed during Covid). But any form of work or part time job is seen as a plus! In fact I can't think of a single person I've interviewed who didn't have some form of employment history, even if it's just a year of shifts at the local Tesco.

@NannyAndJohn People should consider alternative routes too.

My degree course was a specialist one and had a 99% employment rate. Every year large firms such as PWC and large solicitors firms would come in and try and persuade the graduates to work for them. We had a specialist knowledge in agriculture and country estate management that was really desirable. Everyone that wanted a grad job with them got one. It wouldn’t be an expected route but we had niche knowledge and a year industrial placement experience that set us ahead.

It's less about role models and more about how it is taught.

We had an excellent maths teacher, my class had him for the first two years of high school and every girl who was in his class chose maths as a subject for standard grades. Those who were at general/credit level then went on to have him for another two years and we all passed with decent grades. We had a different teacher for higher maths and most of us dropped in grades or dropped out. I continued but failed higher maths. I re-sat in 6th year and got a B.

He taught the subject in a way that wasn't dry and dull, he was excited about the subject and made it fun. I'd have had to be really interested in the subject to put up with that other teacher just to make the grade.

My job uses quite a bit of maths, and is also in the construction industry so there aren't that many women doing what I do.

It would be interesting to see how the stats are across all the individual STEM parts rather than assuming the (bizarre) 76:24 ratio applies to each of those sectors.

I am an ICU nurse. In various areas including paediatrics, neonates and adults. Maths is so important, calculating drugs, dialysis, and many other things. We are always doing maths, but still a very female dominated profession.

@Sometimesfraught82 I probably should have clarified that I am in the USA. Home Economics was still a required class in the 70's in many schools in the USA. (I took car mechanics instead, but had to jump through a few hoops.). And I was referring to the cost of University education here in the USA (although starting to be an issue in the UK too). As it happens neither of my dc's chose expensive private universities, so all my budgeting was of no purpose.

@SusieSusieSoo, hope you don't mind but I've just sent you a PM.

Art here.
Proportion
How one thing is in relation to another
Geometry
Squaring up from a small sketch.
Perspective
Renaissance painters and architects.

In my opinion everyone should study maths till 18, and conversely, English and literature till 18 - all be it not necessarily for exams.

In my opinion everyone should study maths till 18, and conversely, English and literature till 18 - all be it not necessarily for exams.

I agree. I think we specialise far too early in England (not quite sure what happens with Highers in Scotland, but I think it's more than 3 subjects?)

@Moonbells

I have a PhD in physics and work in a medical physics dept which has science, advanced tech, engineering and maths! I couldn't do my job without maths. I loved it at school, but then discovered astronomy and physics and took that path at uni, but all of physics is underpinned by maths. Medical physics is also a very female-friendly science career - there's always a need for people, it's NHS so you get the benefits of good mat leave, good pension and good equality.

I am also a STEM ambassador and used to go into schools to talk about careers in STEM before covid, and hope to again once it's all a bit more normal.

DS is good at maths and likes it, especially problem-solving. I am delighted.

Another medical physicist here. For me maths was a necessity at school because I wanted to study astronomy, but otherwise I'm very similar. I have a PhD and worked in research for a while but then moved to my current role in the NHS and use maths on a daily basis. There are a lot of female medical physicists and many in senior positions, and the roles available are incredibly diverse with specialisms in nuclear medicine, radiotherapy and rehabilitation engineering to name a few.

I've given talks in schools about careers in medical physics and try to emphasise the importance of the practical application of science and maths in the hospital environment, as well as how fascinating it can be.

I’m an engineer. I mainly use probability; we look at risks and safety measures, and have to calculate probabilities of things going wrong in complex systems. I never even knew this kind of job existed when I was at school; it was not my intended career at all, but I fell into it while temping, and retrained. I love it.

I am not in England, so our system is different.

I did math up to first year university level because I did a science degree. I think first year university math here is roughly equivalent to A Level. Although, my grandson just completed Math 12 (pre calculus) in his last year in high school. It was clearly a tough slog and DH helped him a lot.

I must confess I rarely used math in my career, which ultimately was law.

But, it taught me academic rigour, logical thinking, and abstract reasoning, all things that further any career. Doing higher level math also demonstrates you can handle difficult subjects.

I am very proud of my niece who is close to completing her degree in civil engineering, like her grandfather, my Dad. He taught me the importance of perseverance, which is key to emotional intelligence and success in a career, and life really.

[quote Chemenger]**@tweeters* It's a really satisfying career, it gets you out and about, every project is different and you really get the "I built that" feeling.*

I'm quite envious of civil engineers for this feeling. My dad was a civil engineer and I still get a little bit dewy eyed when I drive over "his" roads and bridges. There is a layby on the road between Kyle of Lochalsh and Lochcarron which is always going to remind me of him. Make sure you point yours out to your children if you have them.[/quote]
Same here. There are many roads and bridges in my province that my late dear Dad either was responsible for design and/or project management. They are literally a concrete legacy. I feel so proud I am his daughter.

Civil engineers make a huge contribution to our infrastructure. Women in the profession can only improve it. We need to help girls stick to math and not to give up.

I only did maths up to GCSE but have never struggled with maths. I am a nurse and used maths daily for drug calculations and assessment tools (BMI etc.). I'm now an academic, I teach (mostly female) undergraduate nursing students and I was shocked at how terrified of maths some of them are. They have to pass a drug calculations exam every year during their degree and, on the whole, they dread it. I have implemented practical maths sessions for the students with specific learning differences, which seems to help, but even for students with no additional learning needs I spend quite a lot of time teaching very basic mathematical concepts that my own dc learnt in primary school. I'm sure a lot of it is to do with fear of maths rather than ability and I do wonder whether some of it is grounded in stereotyping.