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Original poster

Can employer insist I don't have elective surgery on a given date?

108 replies

fightingSmiths · 05/04/2021 09:46

I am waiting for surgery (elective) and will need more than a couple of weeks to recover (severe stage 4 endo). I spoke to my manager and he said as the business is incredibly busy and I am business critical, I will be expected to not go ahead with it anytime soon but to postpone it. The company's reasoning is along the lines elective = not important. I don't have an actual date yet and it may well be a while off but I am looking into funding it privatly as I am in severe pain on a daily basis.

Can work really disallow this procedure as it is not an emergency surgery? And what happens if I go ahead anyways?

OP posts:
Totallyworthit · 05/04/2021 11:52

@Escapetothecuntry

I'm confused, surely it's SSP either way? If you go sick with your symptoms and have the surgery, it's still SSP.
But if op goes off sick with symptoms then it’s ssp then, after having the op, more SSP. Op just wants on lot of SSP-for post op recovery.
Totallyworthit · 05/04/2021 11:53

X post, sorry

Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov · 05/04/2021 11:57

They can deny you leave all they like but once you're sick they can't insist you come in if you're not fit. In my place you couldn't "plan" sick leave. But obviously if someone was going to have surgery we'd know that they were going to be calling in sick after. If you phone in sick after your surgery they can't not pay you if you've a note can they?

Viviennemary · 05/04/2021 11:58

Why did you even tell them it was elective. I'd take it to mean a boob job or similar. So they've got it wrong.

Katrinawaves · 05/04/2021 12:04

If it’s a large blue chip company it’s worth asking if they would pay for you to have it done privately at a time of year which works better for them. Given NHS waiting lists that may even be quicker than waiting for an NHS date.

Original poster
fightingSmiths · 05/04/2021 12:04

I didn't not say it was elective - I just used the term here as shorthand for 'not emergency'

I told them I will have planned gyne surgery hopefully some time soon without going into detail though they are aware of my endometriosis. As it's not an emergency and life saving, they decided they will probably not ok time off as it will impact operations at work.

anyhow, thanks for the helpful replies. Will speak to ACAS next week.

OP posts:
MissSmith80 · 05/04/2021 12:05

Sorry, I've not read the whole thread but I had an 'elective' c-section because baby needed to be delivered within 24 hours. It was classed as planned as they were wheeling me to theatre there and then. Postponing any further was not an option!

Original poster
fightingSmiths · 05/04/2021 12:05

@Katrinawaves

If it’s a large blue chip company it’s worth asking if they would pay for you to have it done privately at a time of year which works better for them. Given NHS waiting lists that may even be quicker than waiting for an NHS date.
🤣🤣

they see people as a commodity and don't give a damn shit.

OP posts:
Moondust001 · 05/04/2021 12:06

@MarkRuffaloCrumble

I think the definition of elective is what you need to challenge here. They’re using it to mean non essential whereas a PP has said it just means non emergency.

Hope your appointment comes through soon and you have a speedy recovery Flowers

This! Almost all surgery / treatment is elective, and that includes a lot of cancer treatments - I doubt anyone would be quibbling about that. Your manager (and it could only be a man) is lucky - he has time to plan for how he will manage during the time that you are having off after surgery! And that would be the answer I would be giving him. Possibly followed by a detailed explanation of all the symptoms and impacts of endometriosis, probably with full colour diagrams.

Tell him to jog on, you will be having the surgery as soon as it can be arranged. And start looking for a better job because if someone is business critical then there will be better employers out there who would really like you to work for them. And when you get that job, come down with a really bad cold for your notice period. I really wouldn't normally support someone who does that, but in his case he deserves nothing better.

itsgettingwierd · 05/04/2021 12:08

The problem seems to stem from the use of "elective".

Everything I've just looked at online mentions "cosmetic" under elective and other serving as urgent or emergency.

I'd say yours comes under urgent.

It's not a choice - it's something you medically need.

Moondust001 · 05/04/2021 12:10

they decided they will probably not ok time off as it will impact operations at work.

You are on SSP. They can't not ok someone who is signed off as sick by a doctor. This is not holiday. Company sick pay, then maybe they could (depends on contractual terms), but SSP isn't optional. An employer can only refuse SSP if they have reason to believe that the person is lying, and you can then report them to HMRC for investigation. No employer wants that.

You don't ask if you can have time off sick. You tell them when you will be having it.

FourWordsImMuNiTy · 05/04/2021 12:12

I do think you should go into detail. Give them one more chance to do the right thing.

Doyoumind · 05/04/2021 12:16

I'd ask your boss if he would consider surgery for male colleague's excruciating back pain or knee replacement surgery to be ok to postpone in the same way. I'm certain he wouldn't. He dismissed the issue as soon as you mentioned gynae. What a dick.

AuntyFungal · 05/04/2021 12:20

Explain the situation to your GP / consultant. They should be able to write a letter re the serious nature of condition / surgery.

Give this letter to HR. Also, email them a copy of letter and that you will be off sick / AL (however you decide to manage your recovery time) from X to Y dates.
It doesn’t matter how shit HR are - they know they can’t deny you time off for this surgery and that it’s not up to your manager.

This should shut them up. If not, ask them (in writing) for the company sickness / surgery policy.

If you reach this point and get the policy, and they’re still denying you (in writing) the time off; come back to us.
I bet they’ll back down &/or have a very poorly written internal policy.

Apandemicyousay · 05/04/2021 12:35

I’d be tempted to say nothing more to your employer until you get your date- maybe when time comes things will be ok, but simultaneously seek advice from ACAS so you know how to respond if they are still negative.

Alternatively if employment precarious say nothing and then on date of your surgery can say to them was admitted to hospital due to pain and needed surgery, implying it was an emergency.

sodoffmenopause · 05/04/2021 13:05

endometriosis is crippling daily and I really feel for you, it's a whole body disease not gyane related only, so when talking to them about be sure to say its pelvic or pelvic organ surgery, that stamps out the ridiculous bias.

Secondly I had excision surgery in June and wasn't about to work for over 2.5 months, so please don't go back to work too soon and let yourself recover.

It's listed as one of the top 20 most painful conditions on the NHS.

On and 100% make sure your surgeon is doing excision not ablation surgery to get you the best results.

Sending big hugs for surgery the last thing you need is this looming over you.

Todaytomorrowyesterday · 05/04/2021 13:14

Your surgery will be planned when it’s planned and work will should understand. The last Endo surgery I had was cancelled twice on the day!! Work completely understood as everything had to be rearranged but they could see the pain I was in and would rather a healthy employee.

The difficulty was not knowing how long I may need off after as it varies over the years!! But I was given the flexibility of WFH. After previous operations I worked in a role on my feet all day - I couldn’t return for 3 weeks!

Original poster
fightingSmiths · 05/04/2021 13:19

@sodoffmenopause

endometriosis is crippling daily and I really feel for you, it's a whole body disease not gyane related only, so when talking to them about be sure to say its pelvic or pelvic organ surgery, that stamps out the ridiculous bias.

Secondly I had excision surgery in June and wasn't about to work for over 2.5 months, so please don't go back to work too soon and let yourself recover.

It's listed as one of the top 20 most painful conditions on the NHS.

On and 100% make sure your surgeon is doing excision not ablation surgery to get you the best results.

Sending big hugs for surgery the last thing you need is this looming over you.

wow, that is a long time off. I have large bilateral cysts and a pouch of Douglas full of endo. It will be excision, not ablation and maybe one of the ovaries out - he will decided once they open me up.

I was hoping to be back to work after 1-2 weeks. You scared me. is 2.5 months a standard recovery time for excision?

OP posts:
l2b2 · 05/04/2021 13:44

Alternatively if employment precarious say nothing and then on date of your surgery can say to them was admitted to hospital due to pain and needed surgery, implying it was an emergency.
^

I think that's a very good idea.

Original poster
fightingSmiths · 05/04/2021 13:54

@l2b2

Alternatively if employment precarious say nothing and then on date of your surgery can say to them was admitted to hospital due to pain and needed surgery, implying it was an emergency. ^

I think that's a very good idea.

I was actually thinking of doing that but want sure if I am on breach of whatever if I keep a planned surgery date to myself. But I guess they wouldn't find out if it planned or emergency as the sick note would not go into such detail??
OP posts:
l2b2 · 05/04/2021 14:09

Sick notes are usually very basic.

Lougle · 05/04/2021 14:46

Would you find it easier if you referred to it as 'essential surgery' rather than 'elective surgery'?

SinkGirl · 05/04/2021 14:50

@fightingSmiths

I am taking meds daily which keep me going. I would be bedbound without but function with. I doubt I would meet the threshold of being disabled under the Equality Act (I have a child with complex needs and know a thing or two about it). That wouldn't stand in an employment tribunal.
You absolutely would meet the EA criteria (from another endo sufferer who did and does, also with two disabled kids). It’s a longterm condition that has a significant impact on your ability to carry out day to day tasks.

They are misinterpreting the word elective. Any surgery that’s not emergency is elective, that doesn’t mean it can be indefinitely delayed at their behest.

Dobbyafreeelf · 05/04/2021 15:10

Probably not helpful but I wouldn't stay in a job that valued me so poorly that they would argue over essential elective surgery.

rookiemere · 05/04/2021 15:11

I have stage 4 endo - thankfully under control for past 10 years through cerazette-and I would not delay that surgery appointment.
How did it come up that it was elective anyway? You're in severe pain and need an operation to sort that, it's not plastic surgery.

I was back at work after both ops after two weeks and felt fine, although I didn't feel great when they put me on a menopause injection zoladex I think it was.

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